I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace. I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all. My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality. Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy
I think kids are comfortable because they are generally more likely to be writing to people they know from face-to-face relationships than are adults. At 10:10 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace.
I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all.
My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality.
Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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Don't want to play the killjoy here, but aren't our answers related to [and dependent on]: - age [teen is broad] - technological proximity [demand] and design [offer] - gender [relatively self-explanatory] - size and nature of existing social networks [directly related to Andrea's point] - topic and nature of discussion [soap talk vs. sport talk vs. me talk] - class [oh, yes, kids form different classes use and think of the Internet, and other ICTs, in different ways] La differance? Cheers Wainer PS My bongo-bongo students seem pretty uncomfortable with online chats, but well into other electronic mediations [but hey, this is CH1 Britain]
-----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Kavanaugh Sent: 28 February 2006 15:24 To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-l] teens and myspace
I think kids are comfortable because they are generally more likely to be writing to people they know from face-to-face relationships than are adults.
At 10:10 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace.
I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all.
My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality.
Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
I'm in the middle of a Facebook study myself right now and one of the things I find fascinating is the ways that students integrate these new channels into an "ecology" of communication technologies. For example, apparently there are things you can say on Facebook in a message that you can't say in email or IM, and that you wouldn't write on someone's Facebook wall. The ways that young people (these are generally late teens) appropriate communication channels is quite nuanced. It occurs to me that "online" or "the Internet" may not be the appropriate level of granularity here. -Andrea Forte (aforte@cc.gatech.edu) On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Andrea Kavanaugh wrote:
I think kids are comfortable because they are generally more likely to be writing to people they know from face-to-face relationships than are adults.
At 10:10 AM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace.
I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all.
My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality.
Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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Hi Nancy, Danah Boyd has written an interesting paper that discusses this, see: http://www.danah.org/papers/AAAS2006.html There is also more discussion at: http://many.corante.com/archives/2006/02/21/the_significance_of_myspace. php Best, Sangeet Bhullar Executive Director WISE KIDS email: sangeet@wisekids.org.uk skype id: sangeetbhullar -----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Nancy Baym Sent: 28 February 2006 15:11 To: air-l@aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] teens and myspace I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace. I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all. My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality. Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Nancy - its so coincidental that you should say this! I had a couple experiences last week in my computer-mediated cultures class where I had to be re-taught this lesson by a group of undergrads as they quickly proceeded to play with an assignment I had given and turn it round to get me linked to their facebook presences (and to think all this while I was uncomfortable at the thought of getting onto facebook because I am faculty and did not want my students to think I was spying on them or something). Also I realised yet again (this realization comes upon me at least once a semester) - that just like in other kinds of geo-social spaces - you stay away too long and you get out of touch - so if I havent bothered to find the latest social hangouts (because of generational inhibitions) and not learned the tech skills needed to be there - I loose touch with the culture and practices that happen "there". what you suggest is also what I see on livejournal and xanga and of course with my son's generation - and this is not just so in "Western" or "US" centric environments - because I know very young children who live online in bollywood, tollywood and various computer game spaces - as young as 7 years old in India (in fact they are more connected to those of us related to them and living outside than some of my siblings here in the US;-)). I also see - viewing the user end - that in what might be considered a comparatively economic more disadvantage locale locally here in Wood County Ohio, there are groups of kids who spend their social life at the intersection and online and offline. In fact in a dissertation defense where my advisee was discussing online cultures, we had this similar discussion (and all present were in some way researchers of online phenomena). Is the notion of online social activity as "not real" a generational issue - are we now the generation that doesnt adequately understand that generation? and how might we re-define notions of digital divide considering all this? :) r At 09:10 AM 2/28/2006 -0600, you wrote:
I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace.
I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all.
My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality.
Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Radhika Gajjala http://personal.bgsu.edu/~radhik Associate Professor Dept of IPC/School of Comm Studies 315 West Hall Bowling Green State University Bowling Green, OH 43403 419-372-0528 fax - 419-372-0202
Hi Nancy and all, In my own work with youth online (although not with MySpace) I've found that more than any large distinction between online and offline and their relative valuing, that the youth I've studied (alll heavy online users) often have strong opinions/ways of valuing particular online practices, services, and spaces. For instance, some are strongly critical of different forms of netspeak, or critical of speedrunning in gaming, or critical and fearful of chatrooms, etc. Anyway, among this group of case studies the moral, aesthetic, and social judgements about certain online practices and spaces have been more pronounced than the online/offline distinction. Kevin
I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace.
I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all.
My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality.
Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Kevin Leander, Ph.D. Vanderbilt University http://www.vanderbilt.edu/litspace
good point - so the distinctions they go by are not the same ones that we as researchers tend to go in with. They treat EACH "space" (particularities of the interface/program) as a specific context with social practices. r At 10:04 AM 2/28/2006 -0600, you wrote:
Hi Nancy and all,
In my own work with youth online (although not with MySpace) I've found that more than any large distinction between online and offline and their relative valuing, that the youth I've studied (alll heavy online users) often have strong opinions/ways of valuing particular online practices, services, and spaces. For instance, some are strongly critical of different forms of netspeak, or critical of speedrunning in gaming, or critical and fearful of chatrooms, etc. Anyway, among this group of case studies the moral, aesthetic, and social judgements about certain online practices and spaces have been more pronounced than the online/offline distinction.
Kevin
I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace.
I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all.
My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality.
Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Kevin Leander, Ph.D. Vanderbilt University http://www.vanderbilt.edu/litspace _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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Dear Nancy and others, Since I'm from Australia I've ended up late into this great discussion. I am working with groups of tweens and teens across a range of contexts and have just written a paper about the seemlessness of children's social practices across a range of spaces - both online and offline. I've pointed out that there is no dichotomy for them and that they blend into each other. The paper will appear in a journal called "E-Learning" at: http://www.wwwords.co.uk/elea/ for anybody interested. Since the paper covers the 11 - 18 age group I've used the words children, adolescents and young people accordingly. Here's my asbtract: Childrens virtual experiences as an interface to their identities and their everyday lives Angela Thomas University of Sydney Abstract In this paper I will explore the seamlessness between childrens online and offline worlds. For children, there is no such dichotomy of online and offline, or virtual and real the digital is so much intertwined into their lives and psyche that the one is entirely enmeshed with the other. Despite early research pointing to the differences that mark the virtual as a space of otherness, I want to suggest that the fabric of childrens everyday lives knows no such distinct demarcation, and that what they do in their virtual worlds significantly affects how they connect to society. Moreover, through the virtual, children are simultaneously engaging in acts of self-reflection, self-fashioning and identity formation. Using data from a longitudinal ethnographic study of children online, I illuminate a number of case studies which support this argument. I do so by using narrative accounts based on extensive interviews with focus children. Here's a bit of the conclusion and my references: Throughout the paper I have made six key points: · Children live in complex, heteroglossic, dynamically interactional worlds, with the ability to multitask and exist successfully across a variety of spaces, cultures and roles at any given time · Childrens lives in online communities connect to and blend into their lives in offline communities: socially, emotionally, sometimes phyically, and intellectually · What children do online is essentially similar to what they do offline: make friends, talk about their interests, engage in hobbies and pursuits that interest them, and have fun · Young people are engaged in struggles of identity formation: they struggle for power, popularity, to define who they are, and to understand their early sexual development. This is reflected in their online worlds, though sometimes expressed through alternative semiotic means. · Discursively produced themes of angst, power, romance and sex can be drawn from these case studies, reflecting the parallels of everyday lived experiences and fluidity of emotions between the online and offline worlds inhabited by young people · Online communities are important socialisation agents for youth culture REFERENCES Agger, B. (2004). The Virtual Self. MA, USA: Blackwell. Arnett, J. J. (1995). Adolescents uses of media for self-socialization. Journal of Youth and Adolescence, 24, pp. 519 533. Bakhtin, M.M. (1981). The Dialogic Imagination: Four Essays. Trans. C. Emerson and M. Holquist. Austin: University of Texas Press. Beavis, C., Nixon, H. & Atkinson, S. (2005) LAN cafes: cafes, places of gathering, or sites of informal teaching and learning? Education, Communication and Information (Routledge UK), 5(1), 41-60. Special issue: New Media, Production Practices, Learning Spaces. Bourdieu, P. (1990). In Other Words: Essays Towards a Reflexive Sociology (M. Adamson, Trans.). Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press. (Original work published 1982, 1987) Buckingham, D. (2000). After the Death of Childhood: Growing Up in the Age of Electronic Media. Cambridge, Polity Press. Butler, J. (1990) Gender as Performance. A Critical Sense: Interviews with Intellectuals. P. Obsborne. Davis, I. (2005). Talis, Web 2.0 and All That. [Blog post: July 4, 2005]. Internet Alchemy. Retrieved September 20, 2005, from http://internetalchemy.org/2005/07/talis-web-20-and-all-that Denzin, N.K. (1992). The Many Faces of Emotionality: Reading Persona. Investigating Subjectivity: Research on Lived Experience. C. Ellis & Flaherty, M. G. London, SAGE Publications: 17-30. Ellis, C. & Flaherty, M. (1992). An Agenda for the Interpretation of Lived Experience. Investigating Subjectivity. C. Ellis & Flaherty, M. London, Sage Publications. Foucault, M. (1980). Power/Knowledge: selected interviews and other writings 1972-1977. London, Harvester Wheatshaft. Foucault, M. (1980). Power/Knowledge: selected interviews and other writings 1972-1977. London, Harvester Wheatshaft. Garfinkel, H. (1967). Studies in Ethnomethodology. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall. Gee, J. P. (2001). Identity as an Analytic Lens for Research in Education. In W. G. Secada (Ed.) Review of Research in Education, 25, 99-126. Washington, D.C.: American Educational Research Association. Haraway, D. (1997). Modest_Witness@Second_Millennium.FemaleMan_Meets_OncoMouse: Feminism and technoscience. London: Routledge. James, A., Jenks, C. and Prout, A. (1998). Theorizing Childhood. Cambridge, UK: Polity Press. Kelly, K. (2005). We Are the Web. Wired. Issue 13.08, August 2005. Retrieved October 22, 2005, from http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.08/tech.html. Lemke, J. L. (1998). Metamedia Literacy: Transforming Meanings and Media. Handbook of Literacy and Technology: Transformations in a Post-Typographic World. D. Reinking, McKenna, M. C., Labbo, L. D. & Kieffer, R. D. London, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates Publishers: 283-301. Malson, H. (1998). The Thin Woman: Feminism, Post-Structuralism and the Social Psychology of Anorexia Nervosa. London, Routledge. Nanowrimo.org. (2005). What is Nanowrimo? Retrieved February 27th, 2006 From: http://www.nanowrimo.org/modules/cjaycontent/index.php?id=2 Phillips, L. & Jörgensen, M. W. (2002). Discourse Analysis as Theory and Method. London, SAGE. Stone, A. R. (1991). Will The Real Body Stand Up?: Boundaries Stories About Virtual Cultures. Cyberspace. First Steps. M. Benedikt. Cambridge, MA, MIT Press. Street, B.V. (1984). Literacy in theory and practice. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge Subrahmanyam, K., Greenfield, P. and Tynes, B. (2004). Constructing sexuality and identity in an online teen chat room. Applied Developmental Psychology 25. pp. 651-666. Suler, J. (2005). Adolescents in Cyberspace: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Retrieved February 27th, 2006 From: http://www.rider.edu/suler/psycyber/adoles.html Thomas, A. (2004). Digital Literacies of the Cybergirl. E-Learning, (1), 3. pp: 358-382. Thomas, A. (2005). Fictional Blogging and the Narrative Identity of Adolescent Girls. Paper prepared for Blogtalk Downunder Conference, May, 2005, Sydney. Turkle, S. (1995). Life on the Screen. New York, Simon and Schuster.University Press. Valentine, G., & Holloway, S.L. (2002). Cyberkids? Exploring childrens identities and social networks in online and off line worlds. Annals of the Association of American Geographers, 92, pp. 302-319. Kind Regards, Angela http://anya.blogsome.com _______________________________________________________ Angela Thomas Lecturer in English Education, Faculty of Education and Social Work University of Sydney Phone: +61 2 9351 6229, Fax: +61 2 9351 2606 "Ceci n'est pas une .signature" ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Phew, that was a slew of emails to plod through - but what an interesting discussion! Given that I'm researching the domestication of the internet, I'd like to throw my 2 Canadian cents in... I don't believe that teens problematize their internet use (whatever the weapon of choice/fad may be) the way that we are in this conversation. Many teens - if not most - have always had internet (within a certain demographic of course) - it's a part of their lives; it's ubiquitous - it's invisible; it's part of their domestic ensemble - much like the telephone, tv, and so forth. So while it seems that teens have appropriated internet, domesticated it - made it their own - others are not far behind, and by others I mean the parents of the teens. From the research I have conducted with the NetLab research team, I see that families (in any shape or form) are integrating internet in their daily mundane tasks - this is not surprising - whether it be looking for recipes, information about an itchy rash, what kind of washing machine to purchase, IMing and Webcam-ing with families overseas or catching up on Amazing Race. People are less concerned about internet taking over f2f because their experience tells them that it just doesn't happen that way, and we certainly have enough research to support the fact that people don't replace f2f with CMC. So the 'older generation' will soon catch up :) So in a nutshell - I don't think teens perceive their CMC as problematic - it's just what they do - in addition to other ways of interacting (my favourite of course is the group of teens all standing together - and all using their mobile phones and/or texting). This is not to say that their experiences with internet is all positive - certainly not the case, but it's just part of the package for them. Tracy ******************************************** Tracy L. M. Kennedy PhD Candidate - Department of Sociology Graduate Fellow - Knowledge Media Design Institute Research Associate - NetLab - Centre for Urban & Community Studies University of Toronto 725 Spadina Ave. Toronto, ON M5S 2J4 tkennedy@netwomen.ca www.netwomen.ca www.kmdi.utoronto.ca/collaborative ******************************************** -----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Nancy Baym Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:11 AM To: air-l@aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] teens and myspace I have a question for those of you working with youth culture, particularly but not just around MySpace. I have been interested recently by what I perceive as a gap between the ways in which most of us *use* the internet socially (ie, often without big issues about it) and the way we *think* about using the internet socially (ie, a poor substitute for more meaningful face-to-face interaction). Recently a number of adults have said to me that this gap between action and perception, which they acknowledge in themselves, is completely gone with teens, what with myspace and all. My question is whether youth really perceive their online communication to be completely non-problematic compared to face-to-face communication, or if even amongst teens there is a sense that it might be a little pathetic or embarrassing to use the internet socially (even amongst those who do). Is the stigma around online socializing really completely gone for youth? Of course, adults always perceive kids as way better and more comfortable with the net than they are, which makes me wonder if this sense that kids have no sense of stigma is adult perception vs youth reality. Thanks for your thoughts, Nancy _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
I agree - this has been very interesting. Lately I've been forming thoughts about the type of socializing teens are doing in social network communities (SNC's), and I've stumbled upon an interesting (anecdotal) insight. Teens spend an enormous amount of time "managing" social interaction in SNC's. That is to say rather than transposing their social existence into services like MySpace and Facebook, they augment their social existence with a level of micro-management never available before. With an entire network of hundreds of "friends" at their fingertips, and always-on communication tools like Instant Messenger and SMS for connection, the perceived need to manage relationships is never-ending. To be a good Facebook friend, you've got to answer your messages, post to your friend's walls, and return pokes; these extensions of the service have become part of the normal social interaction. The situation is compounded on both ends. As inherently-curious students have the ability to deeply explore and manage their social networks, the upstart culture of the services impose good usage rules. The inordinate amount of time students spend in SNC's may be a side effect of the "new rules" required to be a good "MySpace/Facebook/etc" friend. Just as we occasionally have that sort-of-uncomfortable "did you get my email?" interaction, students are constantly having having to worry about who is poking, messaging, and responding to whom, and juggling the status of their virtual social interaction(s). To conclude, I'm really not surprised that students feel a sense of relief when they leave social networks; the cognitive load of always-on social management might be very high. I'd wonder what percentage of students view these services as high-stress, virtual monkeys on their backs. I kid, but maybe not - if I had to spend three hours a day on a website to satisfy all my social requirements, it might get to me as well. Regards, Fred On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, T. Kennedy wrote:
I don't believe that teens problematize their internet use (whatever the weapon of choice/fad may be) the way that we are in this conversation. Many teens - if not most - have always had internet (within a certain demographic of course) - it's a part of their lives; it's ubiquitous - it's invisible; it's part of their domestic ensemble - much like the telephone, tv, and so forth.
-- Fred Stutzman http://claimID.com AIM: chimprawk 919-260-8508
So, i'm the psycho child obsessively hanging out on MySpace all night and hanging out with teens during the day. (Oh, and dealing with the suited humans who want to ban the site and the press who wants to hype the fear factor.) This thread is amazing to come home to. Here's some data for you. Of the 58 million MySpace accounts, > 85% are American and about half are under 24 (aka "youth"). 300,000 are bands and the rest are "adults"... Of course, there are a lot of folks aged 100 who are actually teens. There are many different subcultures living under the same roof. MySpace is home to teens, musicians, porn divas (think Suicide Girls), artists, goths, emos, and all sorts of creatures of the club world. MySpace is common across the teenscape in the States, across socio- economic class, race and gender. It's accessed in schools and in homes (when possible). The kids who have Net access and aren't on it are primarily either 1) banned by school/parents; 2) "too cool for MySpace." They are mostly "mainstream" for whatever that means... at least they perceive the average MySpacer as mainstream, even if not themselves. What i'm finding is that they are facing many of the same consequences online that they've always faced offline. They are finding that gossip gets them into trouble, that sketchy people exist everywhere (especially in their peergroup), and that bullying uses whatever medium is available. They are finding that popularity moves smoothly between online and offline worlds, that coolness requires digital literacy, and that reciprocity is critical for bonding. They are using the site to hang out and share cultural bits like music, links, videos, etc. They definitely don't have a stigma attached to the Internet but most would rather be hanging out with their friends in physical space because it's more interesting. So they are acutely aware of the limitations for hanging out, but it's not about stigma. Often, they are on MySpace when their parents think they're doing homework or before/after dinner or when they're not allowed out. So they spend quite a bit of time bitching back and forth to each other. They recognize that IM is not the same as voice and depending on the teen, they prefer one medium to the other, but often not because of stigma, more preference. Older (academically minded) teens are recognizing the interruption problem with both phone and IM when they're trying to actually do something and they'll turn both off. [Do note: most teens leave their phones off most of the day because of school... they don't think it's necessary to have it on all the time, unlike most adults with mobiles.] I'm also seeing the sociable IM practices fade in college when youth have more freedom to gather and less interest in spending hours in front of their computer just cuz. A lot of what i'm seeing about "outgrowing" it comes from that - the opportunity to have other forms of socialization. For those with $, SMS is starting to replace it because they are mobile. All you can eat data plans are just starting to kick in. As for "addiction," remember that this is language that has always been used around moral panics when youth value what is being used but recognize that it's not accepted by adult culture. If you look at the diaries of the Lowell girls, they wrote extensively about the guilt they felt about reading all of the time... They talked about being addicted to the novels and expressed "guilty pleasures." So it doesn't surprise me that there's expressions of addiction, but it's not an addiction that most are actually fighting (as opposed to say heroin). Oh, and re: terminology... "The Internet" refers to Google (and what is found through it) to most of the teens i've been dealing with. There is email, IM, MySpace, (games if appropriate), and the Internet. I don't really hear "online" so much... i hear a lot more about "her profile" or "on MySpace" but not "online" per say. I would be very hesitant to draw too many parallels between Friendster and MySpace because they were invaded by very different populations and similar features were used very differently. The bulk of Friendster's population was the 20somethings who had a lot of mobility and freedom - their expressions via testimonials were very much meant to talk _about_ the owner while MySpace comments are often a dialogue between the two meant to be overheard. The networking component that was critical to Friendster because that group was looking to get laid is not that significant in MySpace - it's just a way to gather friends around. Far fewer people teens traverse the network than one might assume. There was a lot more sarcasm and irony in Friendster, in part because the early adopters were the geeks, freaks and queers who were damn fluent in subcultural language and used that for humorous expression in Friendster. The MySpace teens' expressions are much more rooted in what they mean to express than a meta-narrative of it. [If you want my ethnographic piece on Friendster, let me know - it's still in review.] MySpace is as connected to the offline as Facebook. It's just the difference between high schools and colleges for the most part now. One thing that is really affecting the dynamic is the fear of predators. Every day i hear from teens who are afraid of what's going on - they hear these reports and they're scared. They want to know if it's real. The latest high drama situation involved the disappearance of two neighbors, girls both named Alex. The mothers were all over the press screaming foul play, abduction, etc. They blamed MySpace and the press blamed them in turn. MySpace worked directly with law enforcement and fed me data for my engagements with the press today (i was to face the parents on NBC tonite). They were clearly banned from the site 10 days before they were "abducted" because they went from logging in hourly and sending messages frequently to suddenly stopping. Their profiles will covered with information about how much they loved each other (signaling a queer relationship with "bisexual" and with the language they were using). They found the girls this morning before i met the parents. They had run away to be with each other. They were brought back forcibly. :-( The attorney general of Connecticut is after MySpace for child endangerment after a child predator supposedly harmed numerous kids in his state; police have had no reports of any such predator. The number of actual abductions or sexual crimes that might even possibly be connected to MySpace currently numbers <10. 1% of all sex crimes against minors have anything to do with the Internet. There are more sex crimes against minors per day in the state of Connecticut than can be remotely connected to MySpace. And MySpace has a lot more kids than the state of Connecticut. The fearful hype is pretty intense right now - people are running pretty darn scared. What kills me is that the data doesn't support the hype - it is a pure moral panic. Of course, kids are being expelled on a regular basis for their participation on MySpace and some people aren't getting jobs. Of course, many are because of MySpace; a girl today told me about starting her music career there and finding that people actually like her music. Still, as we think about perception by teens, it's important to note that the scary press is doing more to shape perception of the Internet and addiction than anything else right now.... Anyhow, i hope some of this helps... danah - - - - - - - - - - d a n a h ( d o t ) o r g - - - - - - - - - - "taken out of context i must seem so strange" musings :: http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts
No... but it seems to be to every flipping out parent in the country. Remember: online is *scary*. ::shudder:: We must ban it and stop it and protect our children! They are going to be raped and tortured and kidnapped and molested! These scary people aren't in our neighborhood - they are all online!!! ::sigh:: As for this finding... remember, some findings are obvious, but it's still nice to find them in data. I had never seen stats on these practices before starting all of this. And it's nice to learn about how bullying plays out now and compare it over the ages and across all technologies. Of course, it's important to note that quite a few teens have bought into their parent's paranoia and think that the online world is somehow more dangerous. That's *very* frustrating to me... Then again, perception is more important than data when it comes to fear. danah On Mar 1, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Ellis Godard wrote:
Danah Boyd wrote:
What i'm finding is that they are facing many of the same consequences online that they've always faced offline.
Is that surprising to them? Or to you?
-eg
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- - - - - - - - - - d a n a h ( d o t ) o r g - - - - - - - - - - "taken out of context i must seem so strange" musings :: http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts
So, i'm the psycho child obsessively hanging out on MySpace all night and hanging out with teens during the day. (Oh, and dealing with the suited humans who want to ban the site and the press who wants to hype the fear factor.) This thread is amazing to come home to. Here's some data for you. Of the 58 million MySpace accounts, > 85% are American and about half are under 24 (aka "youth"). 300,000 are bands and the rest are "adults"... Of course, there are a lot of folks aged 100 who are actually teens. There are many different subcultures living under the same roof. MySpace is home to teens, musicians, porn divas (think Suicide Girls), artists, goths, emos, and all sorts of creatures of the club world. MySpace is common across the teenscape in the States, across socio- economic class, race and gender. It's accessed in schools and in homes (when possible). The kids who have Net access and aren't on it are primarily either 1) banned by school/parents; 2) "too cool for MySpace." They are mostly "mainstream" for whatever that means... at least they perceive the average MySpacer as mainstream, even if not themselves. What i'm finding is that they are facing many of the same consequences online that they've always faced offline. They are finding that gossip gets them into trouble, that sketchy people exist everywhere (especially in their peergroup), and that bullying uses whatever medium is available. They are finding that popularity moves smoothly between online and offline worlds, that coolness requires digital literacy, and that reciprocity is critical for bonding. They are using the site to hang out and share cultural bits like music, links, videos, etc. They definitely don't have a stigma attached to the Internet but most would rather be hanging out with their friends in physical space because it's more interesting. So they are acutely aware of the limitations for hanging out, but it's not about stigma. Often, they are on MySpace when their parents think they're doing homework or before/after dinner or when they're not allowed out. So they spend quite a bit of time bitching back and forth to each other. They recognize that IM is not the same as voice and depending on the teen, they prefer one medium to the other, but often not because of stigma, more preference. Older (academically minded) teens are recognizing the interruption problem with both phone and IM when they're trying to actually do something and they'll turn both off. [Do note: most teens leave their phones off most of the day because of school... they don't think it's necessary to have it on all the time, unlike most adults with mobiles.] I'm also seeing the sociable IM practices fade in college when youth have more freedom to gather and less interest in spending hours in front of their computer just cuz. A lot of what i'm seeing about "outgrowing" it comes from that - the opportunity to have other forms of socialization. For those with $, SMS is starting to replace it because they are mobile. All you can eat data plans are just starting to kick in. As for "addiction," remember that this is language that has always been used around moral panics when youth value what is being used but recognize that it's not accepted by adult culture. If you look at the diaries of the Lowell girls, they wrote extensively about the guilt they felt about reading all of the time... They talked about being addicted to the novels and expressed "guilty pleasures." So it doesn't surprise me that there's expressions of addiction, but it's not an addiction that most are actually fighting (as opposed to say heroin). Oh, and re: terminology... "The Internet" refers to Google (and what is found through it) to most of the teens i've been dealing with. There is email, IM, MySpace, (games if appropriate), and the Internet. I don't really hear "online" so much... i hear a lot more about "her profile" or "on MySpace" but not "online" per say. I would be very hesitant to draw too many parallels between Friendster and MySpace because they were invaded by very different populations and similar features were used very differently. The bulk of Friendster's population was the 20somethings who had a lot of mobility and freedom - their expressions via testimonials were very much meant to talk _about_ the owner while MySpace comments are often a dialogue between the two meant to be overheard. The networking component that was critical to Friendster because that group was looking to get laid is not that significant in MySpace - it's just a way to gather friends around. Far fewer people teens traverse the network than one might assume. There was a lot more sarcasm and irony in Friendster, in part because the early adopters were the geeks, freaks and queers who were damn fluent in subcultural language and used that for humorous expression in Friendster. The MySpace teens' expressions are much more rooted in what they mean to express than a meta-narrative of it. [If you want my ethnographic piece on Friendster, let me know - it's still in review.] MySpace is as connected to the offline as Facebook. It's just the difference between high schools and colleges. One thing that is really affecting the dynamic is the fear of predators. Every day i hear from teens who are afraid of what's going on - they hear these reports and they're scared. They want to know if it's real. The latest high drama situation involved the disappearance of two neighbors, girls both named Alex. The mothers were all over the press screaming foul play, abduction, etc. They blamed MySpace and the press blamed them in turn. MySpace worked directly with law enforcement and fed me data for my engagements with the press today (i was to face the parents on NBC tonite). They were clearly banned from the site 10 days before they were "abducted" because they went from logging in hourly and sending messages frequently to suddenly stopping. Their profiles will covered with information about how much they loved each other (signaling a queer relationship with "bisexual" and with the language they were using). They found the girls this morning before i met the parents. They had run away to be with each other. They were brought back forcibly. :-( The attorney general of Connecticut is after MySpace for child endangerment after a child predator supposedly harmed numerous kids in his state; police have had no reports of any such predator. The number of actual abductions or sexual crimes that might even possibly be connected to MySpace currently numbers <10. 1% of all sex crimes against minors have anything to do with the Internet. There are more sex crimes against minors per day in the state of Connecticut than can be remotely connected to MySpace. And MySpace has a lot more kids than the state of Connecticut. The fearful hype is pretty intense right now - people are running pretty darn scared. What kills me is that the data doesn't support the hype - it is a pure moral panic. Of course, kids are being expelled on a regular basis for their participation on MySpace and some people aren't getting jobs. Of course, many are because of MySpace; a girl today told me about starting her music career there and finding that people actually like her music. Still, as we think about perception by teens, it's important to note that the scary press is doing more to shape perception of the Internet and addiction than anything else right now.... danah - - - - - - - - - - d a n a h ( d o t ) o r g - - - - - - - - - - "taken out of context i must seem so strange" musings :: http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts
Thankyou dana! that was very useful for my project(s) r http://www.cyberdiva.org teaching blog: cyberdiva.typepad.com other stuff: http://personal.bgsu.edu/~radhik
participants (12)
-
Andrea Forte -
Andrea Kavanaugh -
Angela Thomas -
danah boyd -
Ellis Godard -
Fred Stutzman -
Kevin Leander -
Nancy Baym -
Radhika Gajjala -
Sangeet Bhullar -
T. Kennedy -
Wainer Lusoli