Re: [Air-L] Is there any published research on "trolling"?
It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha! I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew out of it" so to speak. There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous purposes. Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k@gmail.com<mailto:athina.k@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Thomas, Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to them as trolls : ) but I get your point. About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark. Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly more complex issues at stake. I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point this out. Cheers Athina On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness - akin to those with aspergers. It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia. So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they are motivated. Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl@gmail.com<mailto:bbakiogl@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that hacked and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups: Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining operations. So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching the topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist language/slurs that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last decade or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring them the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung who was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made it to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of it, of course. Good times :P
But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need to know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am willing to learn...
BsB
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour@gmail.com<mailto:kkontour@gmail.com>> wrote:
My two cents: not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored, there are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink, pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure". By contrast, they can also foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views (it depends on how other folks deal with the trolls). I would count trolls as being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of online ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Thanks,
Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media Lawrence University
http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/
-- "Come to the dark side, we have cookies." ~Anonymous _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ -- <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/> Dr Athina Karatzogianni<http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/karatzogianni,_dr_athina.aspx> Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences The University of Hull United Kingdom HU6 7RX T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790 F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107 E: a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk> Download my work for free here: http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
Greetings everyone, This is not exactly the kind of self-introduction I imagined as a new member of AIR, and it has nothing to do with social awkwardness. I fully understand the research topic is primarily about trolling. My comments here are less about topical tangents, and more about the ethical principles of research conduct and professional values of AIR as a whole. I have to say that I'm appalled by the framing and discussion of people living with Asperger's Syndrome in these postings. I'm not especially interested in quibbling about the boundaries of a wide spectrum of highly contested characteristics, traits, and behaviors, even in deference to the diagnostic pathology of the DSM. For some of us, it's also very much a cultural, social, and political identity from which we do not "suffer." Perhaps it's a personal sensitization to the imposition of syndromes in general, in much the same way I am unwilling to be reduced to an "AIDS patient" or "AIDS victim." Within a context of broad-based generalizations such as "they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue," I'm truly at a loss for how to respond to the singularities of "the social," "the issue," and uniform "they." Call me an atypical aspie, but I do have an acute sense of social irony (and even sense of humor) in how writing this might simply pave the way for my dismissal. Do I remain silent and invisible, or do I speak out and risk offering myself as an interim case study for other researchers eager to situate me in their taxonomy of online deviance? We are more than a singular "issue," more than an arrested development with which others have had close calls and "fortunately grown out of." "They" are members of your organization. It's extremely difficult to invest and participate in any discourse after having been pre-defined as the Other who has yet to speak. Michael Scarce University of California San Francisco On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Thomas Jones wrote:
It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha!
I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew out of it" so to speak.
There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous purposes.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k@gmail.com<mailto:athina.k@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to them as trolls : ) but I get your point.
About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark. Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly more complex issues at stake.
I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point this out.
Cheers
Athina
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness - akin to those with aspergers.
It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia.
So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they are motivated.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl@gmail.com<mailto:bbakiogl@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that hacked and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups: Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining operations. So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching the topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist language/slurs that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last decade or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring them the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung who was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made it to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of it, of course. Good times :P
But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need to know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am willing to learn...
BsB
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour@gmail.com<mailto:kkontour@gmail.com>> wrote:
My two cents: not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored, there are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink, pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure". By contrast, they can also foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views (it depends on how other folks deal with the trolls). I would count trolls as being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of online ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Thanks,
Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media Lawrence University
http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/
-- "Come to the dark side, we have cookies." ~Anonymous _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/> Dr Athina Karatzogianni<http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/karatzogianni,_dr_athina.aspx> Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences The University of Hull United Kingdom HU6 7RX T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790 F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107 E: a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk>
Download my work for free here: http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Hi Michael and any other new folks reading here: Just wanted to quickly jump in to let you know two things: 1. I am in utter agreement with what you have written below, and I thank you for writing it. What's more, based on my familiarity with members of AoIR that goes back more than a decade now, I think I can say with certainty that you weren't the only one who read the comments about autism in the "trolling" thread and thought: "Uh, no. Also, STFU." As an 'older' AoIR member, I apologize for not jumping into this sooner. A new person shouldn't have to introduce themselves in this way. Sorry. 2. If disability rights and social media research is an interest of yours, I can tell you AoIR members have produced some *amazing* scholarship in this area. Gerard Goggin, Helen Kennedy and Kathy Mancuso and others could probably give better citations than I could, so I will leave it to them... 3. Welcome to AoIR, really, and if you get to Manchester in Fall, I will buy you a drink and let you look at my astonishing white woman hair. As anyone can tell you, it's often one of the highlights of our annual conference. Best, Terri On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Michael Scarce <scarce@mac.com> wrote:
Greetings everyone,
This is not exactly the kind of self-introduction I imagined as a new member of AIR, and it has nothing to do with social awkwardness.
I fully understand the research topic is primarily about trolling. My comments here are less about topical tangents, and more about the ethical principles of research conduct and professional values of AIR as a whole.
I have to say that I'm appalled by the framing and discussion of people living with Asperger's Syndrome in these postings.
I'm not especially interested in quibbling about the boundaries of a wide spectrum of highly contested characteristics, traits, and behaviors, even in deference to the diagnostic pathology of the DSM.
For some of us, it's also very much a cultural, social, and political identity from which we do not "suffer." Perhaps it's a personal sensitization to the imposition of syndromes in general, in much the same way I am unwilling to be reduced to an "AIDS patient" or "AIDS victim."
Within a context of broad-based generalizations such as "they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue," I'm truly at a loss for how to respond to the singularities of "the social," "the issue," and uniform "they."
Call me an atypical aspie, but I do have an acute sense of social irony (and even sense of humor) in how writing this might simply pave the way for my dismissal. Do I remain silent and invisible, or do I speak out and risk offering myself as an interim case study for other researchers eager to situate me in their taxonomy of online deviance?
We are more than a singular "issue," more than an arrested development with which others have had close calls and "fortunately grown out of."
"They" are members of your organization. It's extremely difficult to invest and participate in any discourse after having been pre-defined as the Other who has yet to speak.
Michael Scarce University of California San Francisco
On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Thomas Jones wrote:
It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha!
I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew out of it" so to speak.
There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous purposes.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k@gmail.com <mailto:athina.k@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to them as trolls : ) but I get your point.
About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark. Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly more complex issues at stake.
I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point this out.
Cheers
Athina
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto: tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness - akin to those with aspergers.
It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia.
So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they are motivated.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl@gmail.com <mailto:bbakiogl@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that hacked and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups: Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining operations. So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching the topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist language/slurs that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last decade or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring them the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung who was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made it to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of it, of course. Good times :P
But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need to know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am willing to learn...
BsB
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour@gmail.com <mailto:kkontour@gmail.com>> wrote:
My two cents: not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored, there are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink, pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure". By contrast, they can also foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views (it depends on how other folks deal with the trolls). I would count trolls as being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of online ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Thanks,
Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media Lawrence University
http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/
-- "Come to the dark side, we have cookies." ~Anonymous _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/> Dr Athina Karatzogianni< http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/kara...
Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences The University of Hull United Kingdom HU6 7RX T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790 F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107 E: a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk>
Download my work for free here: http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- <http://goog_689013053> <http://goog_689013053> Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003 home: *www.terrisenft.net <http://goog_689013053>** *(needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft
Well, now that we have made the leap from casual conversation to a scathing analytic review, lets at least take the time to make a productive conversation out of it. Given that this is the Association of Internet Researchers, I assume that CMC is familiar to most. That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible. This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195 Oddly, even referenced in an alleged FBI profile of Anonymous leaders, its validity in question as obvious in the article, as seen on ARS Technica: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/bisexual-money-grubber-with-asper... To categorically reject ideas or commentary because of personal offense is antithetical to the purpose of research, but further the identity of researchers. It also requires, at times, much less bravado than recently displayed. I used to troll internet forums and email lists constantly (though not to the 4chan level); I was the very identity (granted, one of many) of the subject at hand here. Also, my psychologist qualitatively aligned me closely, but not exactly with Asperger's which, in her words, I "grew out of". Additionally, Ive also taught Tae Kwon Do for more than 20 years, and as a result, have had large a large influx of children variably diagnosed with autism. Doctors were recommending activities such as Tae Kwon Do as treatment for the further development of those with Autism. In fact there is one Master (in NY I believe) who has dedicated her entire school to it. I am no expert, but I do have personal experience on several sides of this issue. Dismissing that would be rather unfortunate. In the future, lets take more time to welcome thoughts that differ from our prejudice, rather than reject them because of it. Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu ischool.syr.edu THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu ________________________________________ From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] on behalf of Terri Senft [tsenft@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:12 PM To: Michael Scarce Cc: Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers" Hi Michael and any other new folks reading here: Just wanted to quickly jump in to let you know two things: 1. I am in utter agreement with what you have written below, and I thank you for writing it. What's more, based on my familiarity with members of AoIR that goes back more than a decade now, I think I can say with certainty that you weren't the only one who read the comments about autism in the "trolling" thread and thought: "Uh, no. Also, STFU." As an 'older' AoIR member, I apologize for not jumping into this sooner. A new person shouldn't have to introduce themselves in this way. Sorry. 2. If disability rights and social media research is an interest of yours, I can tell you AoIR members have produced some *amazing* scholarship in this area. Gerard Goggin, Helen Kennedy and Kathy Mancuso and others could probably give better citations than I could, so I will leave it to them... 3. Welcome to AoIR, really, and if you get to Manchester in Fall, I will buy you a drink and let you look at my astonishing white woman hair. As anyone can tell you, it's often one of the highlights of our annual conference. Best, Terri On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Michael Scarce <scarce@mac.com> wrote:
Greetings everyone,
This is not exactly the kind of self-introduction I imagined as a new member of AIR, and it has nothing to do with social awkwardness.
I fully understand the research topic is primarily about trolling. My comments here are less about topical tangents, and more about the ethical principles of research conduct and professional values of AIR as a whole.
I have to say that I'm appalled by the framing and discussion of people living with Asperger's Syndrome in these postings.
I'm not especially interested in quibbling about the boundaries of a wide spectrum of highly contested characteristics, traits, and behaviors, even in deference to the diagnostic pathology of the DSM.
For some of us, it's also very much a cultural, social, and political identity from which we do not "suffer." Perhaps it's a personal sensitization to the imposition of syndromes in general, in much the same way I am unwilling to be reduced to an "AIDS patient" or "AIDS victim."
Within a context of broad-based generalizations such as "they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue," I'm truly at a loss for how to respond to the singularities of "the social," "the issue," and uniform "they."
Call me an atypical aspie, but I do have an acute sense of social irony (and even sense of humor) in how writing this might simply pave the way for my dismissal. Do I remain silent and invisible, or do I speak out and risk offering myself as an interim case study for other researchers eager to situate me in their taxonomy of online deviance?
We are more than a singular "issue," more than an arrested development with which others have had close calls and "fortunately grown out of."
"They" are members of your organization. It's extremely difficult to invest and participate in any discourse after having been pre-defined as the Other who has yet to speak.
Michael Scarce University of California San Francisco
On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Thomas Jones wrote:
It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha!
I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew out of it" so to speak.
There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous purposes.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k@gmail.com <mailto:athina.k@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to them as trolls : ) but I get your point.
About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark. Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly more complex issues at stake.
I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point this out.
Cheers
Athina
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto: tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness - akin to those with aspergers.
It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia.
So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they are motivated.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl@gmail.com <mailto:bbakiogl@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that hacked and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups: Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining operations. So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching the topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist language/slurs that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last decade or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring them the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung who was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made it to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of it, of course. Good times :P
But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need to know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am willing to learn...
BsB
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour@gmail.com <mailto:kkontour@gmail.com>> wrote:
My two cents: not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored, there are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink, pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure". By contrast, they can also foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views (it depends on how other folks deal with the trolls). I would count trolls as being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of online ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Thanks,
Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media Lawrence University
http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/
-- "Come to the dark side, we have cookies." ~Anonymous _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/> Dr Athina Karatzogianni< http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/kara...
Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences The University of Hull United Kingdom HU6 7RX T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790 F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107 E: a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk>
Download my work for free here: http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
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-- <http://goog_689013053> <http://goog_689013053> Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003 home: *www.terrisenft.net <http://goog_689013053>** *(needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Thomas, Let me try to be crystal clear, here: my objection to the autism language in the trolling thread has nothing to do protecting people from hurt feelings, being the "PC police," or whatever you'd like to toss next my way. My problem , and continues to be, the sloppy thinking currently transpiring here. This thread on trolling began in good faith, with references asked for and received. Somewhere along the line, it devolved into armchair pathologizing. I'm sorry you feel our analysis as "scathing" but not every thought that is cool on Facebook or Quora or Usenet or OKCupid should fly here unsupported. To your earlier question regarding CMC (do people still say that?) and "internet autism syndrome." Regardless of what Jason Calcanis or anyone else from the Silicon Valley Reporter opines, "internet autism" is NOT a syndrome, or even a disorder, in any sense of hard or social science I know. There is no documentation to demonstrate it is, outside of "I once knew a guy" stories. Frankly, from where I sit, it doesn't look to be much more than a catch-phrase for "behavior that seems anti-social and freaks me out, because I don't operate like that." In this way, it's not unlike "internet voyeurism," or "internet exhibitionism" --two other phrases I've dealt with at length in my publications, some of which take on Josh Harris, the individual Calcanis cites as his single data point for "internet autism syndrome." Here's the thing: Just likenot every person who uses a webcam is an exhibitionist, and not every person who trolls has autism, or autism-like behavior patterns, or might know someone autistic, etc. Use another word, like douchebag, and I'm okay. Just leave words by which other people identity (or are identified by medical or legal authorities) Mental health issues are complicated enough without us playing fast and loose with the terminology. Finally ,and for people who do better with analogies, here's one that replaces a mental health issue with a race/nationality issue. Imagine a hypothetical conversation that goes like this: Poster A: "Internet scamming is complex. Anybody know any literature that takes this issue on?" Poster B: "Yeah, you might look at article X, or Y, or book Z..." (other great suggestions from other folks follow) Person C: "I have some thoughts on scams off the top of my head... (insert some thoughts, which poster admits aren't fully-formed yet, here) Person D: "You know something I've been thinking about? How lots of scammers are from Nigeria..." Person E: "Well , maybe not exactly Nigeria, but West Africa for sure..." Person F: "You could even say it's a syndrome: Nigerian Internet Syndrome. The more Nigerians get on the internet, the more scamming there is, and the more 'regular' people get on the internet, and they act like Nigerians..." Person G: "Well, more like West Africans..." _________________________________________ Person X: WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF?????? Person H: Hey, be cool. We're just throwing ideas around. And besides, it's okay for me to talk like this, because I was West African once, and boy did I do some scamming. Of course, then I grew out of it. Regards, Terri . On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
Well, now that we have made the leap from casual conversation to a scathing analytic review, lets at least take the time to make a productive conversation out of it.
Given that this is the Association of Internet Researchers, I assume that CMC is familiar to most.
That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible.
This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195
Oddly, even referenced in an alleged FBI profile of Anonymous leaders, its validity in question as obvious in the article, as seen on ARS Technica: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/bisexual-money-grubber-with-asper...
To categorically reject ideas or commentary because of personal offense is antithetical to the purpose of research, but further the identity of researchers. It also requires, at times, much less bravado than recently displayed.
I used to troll internet forums and email lists constantly (though not to the 4chan level); I was the very identity (granted, one of many) of the subject at hand here. Also, my psychologist qualitatively aligned me closely, but not exactly with Asperger's which, in her words, I "grew out of". Additionally, Ive also taught Tae Kwon Do for more than 20 years, and as a result, have had large a large influx of children variably diagnosed with autism. Doctors were recommending activities such as Tae Kwon Do as treatment for the further development of those with Autism. In fact there is one Master (in NY I believe) who has dedicated her entire school to it. I am no expert, but I do have personal experience on several sides of this issue. Dismissing that would be rather unfortunate.
In the future, lets take more time to welcome thoughts that differ from our prejudice, rather than reject them because of it.
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones
Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu
ischool.syr.edu
THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu
________________________________________ From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] on behalf of Terri Senft [tsenft@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:12 PM To: Michael Scarce Cc: Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"
Hi Michael and any other new folks reading here:
Just wanted to quickly jump in to let you know two things:
1. I am in utter agreement with what you have written below, and I thank you for writing it. What's more, based on my familiarity with members of AoIR that goes back more than a decade now, I think I can say with certainty that you weren't the only one who read the comments about autism in the "trolling" thread and thought:
"Uh, no. Also, STFU."
As an 'older' AoIR member, I apologize for not jumping into this sooner. A new person shouldn't have to introduce themselves in this way. Sorry.
2. If disability rights and social media research is an interest of yours, I can tell you AoIR members have produced some *amazing* scholarship in this area. Gerard Goggin, Helen Kennedy and Kathy Mancuso and others could probably give better citations than I could, so I will leave it to them...
3. Welcome to AoIR, really, and if you get to Manchester in Fall, I will buy you a drink and let you look at my astonishing white woman hair. As anyone can tell you, it's often one of the highlights of our annual conference.
Best, Terri
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Michael Scarce <scarce@mac.com> wrote:
Greetings everyone,
This is not exactly the kind of self-introduction I imagined as a new member of AIR, and it has nothing to do with social awkwardness.
I fully understand the research topic is primarily about trolling. My comments here are less about topical tangents, and more about the ethical principles of research conduct and professional values of AIR as a whole.
I have to say that I'm appalled by the framing and discussion of people living with Asperger's Syndrome in these postings.
I'm not especially interested in quibbling about the boundaries of a wide spectrum of highly contested characteristics, traits, and behaviors, even in deference to the diagnostic pathology of the DSM.
For some of us, it's also very much a cultural, social, and political identity from which we do not "suffer." Perhaps it's a personal sensitization to the imposition of syndromes in general, in much the same way I am unwilling to be reduced to an "AIDS patient" or "AIDS victim."
Within a context of broad-based generalizations such as "they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue," I'm truly at a loss for how to respond to the singularities of "the social," "the issue," and uniform "they."
Call me an atypical aspie, but I do have an acute sense of social irony (and even sense of humor) in how writing this might simply pave the way for my dismissal. Do I remain silent and invisible, or do I speak out and risk offering myself as an interim case study for other researchers eager to situate me in their taxonomy of online deviance?
We are more than a singular "issue," more than an arrested development with which others have had close calls and "fortunately grown out of."
"They" are members of your organization. It's extremely difficult to invest and participate in any discourse after having been pre-defined as the Other who has yet to speak.
Michael Scarce University of California San Francisco
On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Thomas Jones wrote:
It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha!
I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew out of it" so to speak.
There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous purposes.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k@gmail.com <mailto:athina.k@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to them as trolls : ) but I get your point.
About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark. Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly more complex issues at stake.
I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point this out.
Cheers
Athina
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto: tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness - akin to those with aspergers.
It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia.
So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they are motivated.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl@gmail.com <mailto:bbakiogl@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that hacked and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups: Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining operations. So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching the topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist language/slurs that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last decade or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring them the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung who was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made it to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of it, of course. Good times :P
But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need to know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am willing to learn...
BsB
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour@gmail.com <mailto:kkontour@gmail.com>> wrote:
My two cents: not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored, there are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink, pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure". By contrast, they can also foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views (it depends on how other folks deal with the trolls). I would count trolls as being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of online ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Thanks,
Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media Lawrence University
http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/
-- "Come to the dark side, we have cookies." ~Anonymous _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/> Dr Athina Karatzogianni< http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/kara...
Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences The University of Hull United Kingdom HU6 7RX T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790 F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107 E: a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk>
Download my work for free here: http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003
home: *www.terrisenft.net <http://goog_689013053>** *(needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003 home: www.terrisenft.net (needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft
I stopped right about here: "My problem , and continues to be, the sloppy thinking currently transpiring here." No, please, allow me to be clear: I think its time you stop over analyzing everything, to include "unsubstantiated thoughts", remove yourself from the Internet for a while, and if manageable, your head from your ass. Lest, allow me to bow in the presence of such overwhelming superiority, or at least the overcompensation of such. Newsflash: You and your responses are the reason trolls exist. You are the reason trolls troll. Oppress the opinions of those rightfully and freely entitled to do so, while demeaning them in the process. Yes, that sounds like an incredibly productive venue for a collection of researchers, regardless of their experience. Im surprised youve managed to succeed with such greatness. Im willing to wager that youve discouraged much more discussion and productivity on this list than youve enabled. I could have a field day with the frail logic and "unsubstantiated thoughts" within your own email. I suggest you take a mulligan, but opt not to reapproach. Thanks. Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu ischool.syr.edu THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu ________________________________________ From: Terri Senft [tsenft@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:13 PM To: Thomas Jones Cc: Michael Scarce; Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers" Thomas, Let me try to be crystal clear, here: my objection to the autism language in the trolling thread has nothing to do protecting people from hurt feelings, being the "PC police," or whatever you'd like to toss next my way. My problem , and continues to be, the sloppy thinking currently transpiring here. This thread on trolling began in good faith, with references asked for and received. Somewhere along the line, it devolved into armchair pathologizing. I'm sorry you feel our analysis as "scathing" but not every thought that is cool on Facebook or Quora or Usenet or OKCupid should fly here unsupported. To your earlier question regarding CMC (do people still say that?) and "internet autism syndrome." Regardless of what Jason Calcanis or anyone else from the Silicon Valley Reporter opines, "internet autism" is NOT a syndrome, or even a disorder, in any sense of hard or social science I know. There is no documentation to demonstrate it is, outside of "I once knew a guy" stories. Frankly, from where I sit, it doesn't look to be much more than a catch-phrase for "behavior that seems anti-social and freaks me out, because I don't operate like that." In this way, it's not unlike "internet voyeurism," or "internet exhibitionism" --two other phrases I've dealt with at length in my publications, some of which take on Josh Harris, the individual Calcanis cites as his single data point for "internet autism syndrome." Here's the thing: Just likenot every person who uses a webcam is an exhibitionist, and not every person who trolls has autism, or autism-like behavior patterns, or might know someone autistic, etc. Use another word, like douchebag, and I'm okay. Just leave words by which other people identity (or are identified by medical or legal authorities) Mental health issues are complicated enough without us playing fast and loose with the terminology. Finally ,and for people who do better with analogies, here's one that replaces a mental health issue with a race/nationality issue. Imagine a hypothetical conversation that goes like this: Poster A: "Internet scamming is complex. Anybody know any literature that takes this issue on?" Poster B: "Yeah, you might look at article X, or Y, or book Z..." (other great suggestions from other folks follow) Person C: "I have some thoughts on scams off the top of my head... (insert some thoughts, which poster admits aren't fully-formed yet, here) Person D: "You know something I've been thinking about? How lots of scammers are from Nigeria..." Person E: "Well , maybe not exactly Nigeria, but West Africa for sure..." Person F: "You could even say it's a syndrome: Nigerian Internet Syndrome. The more Nigerians get on the internet, the more scamming there is, and the more 'regular' people get on the internet, and they act like Nigerians..." Person G: "Well, more like West Africans..." _________________________________________ Person X: WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF?????? Person H: Hey, be cool. We're just throwing ideas around. And besides, it's okay for me to talk like this, because I was West African once, and boy did I do some scamming. Of course, then I grew out of it. Regards, Terri . On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
Well, now that we have made the leap from casual conversation to a scathing analytic review, lets at least take the time to make a productive conversation out of it.
Given that this is the Association of Internet Researchers, I assume that CMC is familiar to most.
That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible.
This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195
Oddly, even referenced in an alleged FBI profile of Anonymous leaders, its validity in question as obvious in the article, as seen on ARS Technica: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/bisexual-money-grubber-with-asper...
To categorically reject ideas or commentary because of personal offense is antithetical to the purpose of research, but further the identity of researchers. It also requires, at times, much less bravado than recently displayed.
I used to troll internet forums and email lists constantly (though not to the 4chan level); I was the very identity (granted, one of many) of the subject at hand here. Also, my psychologist qualitatively aligned me closely, but not exactly with Asperger's which, in her words, I "grew out of". Additionally, Ive also taught Tae Kwon Do for more than 20 years, and as a result, have had large a large influx of children variably diagnosed with autism. Doctors were recommending activities such as Tae Kwon Do as treatment for the further development of those with Autism. In fact there is one Master (in NY I believe) who has dedicated her entire school to it. I am no expert, but I do have personal experience on several sides of this issue. Dismissing that would be rather unfortunate.
In the future, lets take more time to welcome thoughts that differ from our prejudice, rather than reject them because of it.
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones
Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu
ischool.syr.edu
THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu
________________________________________ From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] on behalf of Terri Senft [tsenft@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:12 PM To: Michael Scarce Cc: Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"
Hi Michael and any other new folks reading here:
Just wanted to quickly jump in to let you know two things:
1. I am in utter agreement with what you have written below, and I thank you for writing it. What's more, based on my familiarity with members of AoIR that goes back more than a decade now, I think I can say with certainty that you weren't the only one who read the comments about autism in the "trolling" thread and thought:
"Uh, no. Also, STFU."
As an 'older' AoIR member, I apologize for not jumping into this sooner. A new person shouldn't have to introduce themselves in this way. Sorry.
2. If disability rights and social media research is an interest of yours, I can tell you AoIR members have produced some *amazing* scholarship in this area. Gerard Goggin, Helen Kennedy and Kathy Mancuso and others could probably give better citations than I could, so I will leave it to them...
3. Welcome to AoIR, really, and if you get to Manchester in Fall, I will buy you a drink and let you look at my astonishing white woman hair. As anyone can tell you, it's often one of the highlights of our annual conference.
Best, Terri
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Michael Scarce <scarce@mac.com> wrote:
Greetings everyone,
This is not exactly the kind of self-introduction I imagined as a new member of AIR, and it has nothing to do with social awkwardness.
I fully understand the research topic is primarily about trolling. My comments here are less about topical tangents, and more about the ethical principles of research conduct and professional values of AIR as a whole.
I have to say that I'm appalled by the framing and discussion of people living with Asperger's Syndrome in these postings.
I'm not especially interested in quibbling about the boundaries of a wide spectrum of highly contested characteristics, traits, and behaviors, even in deference to the diagnostic pathology of the DSM.
For some of us, it's also very much a cultural, social, and political identity from which we do not "suffer." Perhaps it's a personal sensitization to the imposition of syndromes in general, in much the same way I am unwilling to be reduced to an "AIDS patient" or "AIDS victim."
Within a context of broad-based generalizations such as "they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue," I'm truly at a loss for how to respond to the singularities of "the social," "the issue," and uniform "they."
Call me an atypical aspie, but I do have an acute sense of social irony (and even sense of humor) in how writing this might simply pave the way for my dismissal. Do I remain silent and invisible, or do I speak out and risk offering myself as an interim case study for other researchers eager to situate me in their taxonomy of online deviance?
We are more than a singular "issue," more than an arrested development with which others have had close calls and "fortunately grown out of."
"They" are members of your organization. It's extremely difficult to invest and participate in any discourse after having been pre-defined as the Other who has yet to speak.
Michael Scarce University of California San Francisco
On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Thomas Jones wrote:
It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha!
I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew out of it" so to speak.
There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous purposes.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k@gmail.com <mailto:athina.k@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to them as trolls : ) but I get your point.
About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark. Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly more complex issues at stake.
I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point this out.
Cheers
Athina
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto: tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness - akin to those with aspergers.
It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia.
So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they are motivated.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl@gmail.com <mailto:bbakiogl@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that hacked and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups: Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining operations. So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching the topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist language/slurs that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last decade or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring them the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung who was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made it to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of it, of course. Good times :P
But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need to know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am willing to learn...
BsB
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour@gmail.com <mailto:kkontour@gmail.com>> wrote:
My two cents: not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored, there are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink, pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure". By contrast, they can also foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views (it depends on how other folks deal with the trolls). I would count trolls as being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of online ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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-- Thanks,
Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media Lawrence University
http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/
-- "Come to the dark side, we have cookies." ~Anonymous _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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-- <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/> Dr Athina Karatzogianni< http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/kara...
Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences The University of Hull United Kingdom HU6 7RX T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790 F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107 E: a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk>
Download my work for free here: http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
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home: *www.terrisenft.net <http://goog_689013053>** *(needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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-- Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003 home: www.terrisenft.net (needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft
You forgot to mention how I asked for it, dressed like that and all. T On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
I stopped right about here:
"My problem , and continues to be, the sloppy thinking currently transpiring here."
No, please, allow me to be clear: I think its time you stop over analyzing everything, to include "unsubstantiated thoughts", remove yourself from the Internet for a while, and if manageable, your head from your ass.
Lest, allow me to bow in the presence of such overwhelming superiority, or at least the overcompensation of such.
Newsflash: You and your responses are the reason trolls exist. You are the reason trolls troll. Oppress the opinions of those rightfully and freely entitled to do so, while demeaning them in the process. Yes, that sounds like an incredibly productive venue for a collection of researchers, regardless of their experience. Im surprised youve managed to succeed with such greatness.
Im willing to wager that youve discouraged much more discussion and productivity on this list than youve enabled.
I could have a field day with the frail logic and "unsubstantiated thoughts" within your own email. I suggest you take a mulligan, but opt not to reapproach.
Thanks.
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones
Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu
ischool.syr.edu
THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu
________________________________________ From: Terri Senft [tsenft@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:13 PM To: Thomas Jones Cc: Michael Scarce; Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"
Thomas,
Let me try to be crystal clear, here: my objection to the autism language in the trolling thread has nothing to do protecting people from hurt feelings, being the "PC police," or whatever you'd like to toss next my way.
My problem , and continues to be, the sloppy thinking currently transpiring here. This thread on trolling began in good faith, with references asked for and received. Somewhere along the line, it devolved into armchair pathologizing. I'm sorry you feel our analysis as "scathing" but not every thought that is cool on Facebook or Quora or Usenet or OKCupid should fly here unsupported.
To your earlier question regarding CMC (do people still say that?) and "internet autism syndrome." Regardless of what Jason Calcanis or anyone else from the Silicon Valley Reporter opines, "internet autism" is NOT a syndrome, or even a disorder, in any sense of hard or social science I know. There is no documentation to demonstrate it is, outside of "I once knew a guy" stories.
Frankly, from where I sit, it doesn't look to be much more than a catch-phrase for "behavior that seems anti-social and freaks me out, because I don't operate like that." In this way, it's not unlike "internet voyeurism," or "internet exhibitionism" --two other phrases I've dealt with at length in my publications, some of which take on Josh Harris, the individual Calcanis cites as his single data point for "internet autism syndrome."
Here's the thing: Just likenot every person who uses a webcam is an exhibitionist, and not every person who trolls has autism, or autism-like behavior patterns, or might know someone autistic, etc. Use another word, like douchebag, and I'm okay. Just leave words by which other people identity (or are identified by medical or legal authorities) Mental health issues are complicated enough without us playing fast and loose with the terminology.
Finally ,and for people who do better with analogies, here's one that replaces a mental health issue with a race/nationality issue. Imagine a hypothetical conversation that goes like this:
Poster A: "Internet scamming is complex. Anybody know any literature that takes this issue on?"
Poster B: "Yeah, you might look at article X, or Y, or book Z..."
(other great suggestions from other folks follow)
Person C: "I have some thoughts on scams off the top of my head...
(insert some thoughts, which poster admits aren't fully-formed yet, here)
Person D: "You know something I've been thinking about? How lots of scammers are from Nigeria..."
Person E: "Well , maybe not exactly Nigeria, but West Africa for sure..."
Person F: "You could even say it's a syndrome: Nigerian Internet Syndrome. The more Nigerians get on the internet, the more scamming there is, and the more 'regular' people get on the internet, and they act like Nigerians..."
Person G: "Well, more like West Africans..."
_________________________________________
Person X: WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF??????
Person H: Hey, be cool. We're just throwing ideas around. And besides, it's okay for me to talk like this, because I was West African once, and boy did I do some scamming.
Of course, then I grew out of it.
Regards, Terri
.
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
Well, now that we have made the leap from casual conversation to a scathing analytic review, lets at least take the time to make a productive conversation out of it.
Given that this is the Association of Internet Researchers, I assume that CMC is familiar to most.
That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible.
This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195
Oddly, even referenced in an alleged FBI profile of Anonymous leaders, its validity in question as obvious in the article, as seen on ARS Technica: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/bisexual-money-grubber-with-asper...
To categorically reject ideas or commentary because of personal offense is antithetical to the purpose of research, but further the identity of researchers. It also requires, at times, much less bravado than recently displayed.
I used to troll internet forums and email lists constantly (though not to the 4chan level); I was the very identity (granted, one of many) of the subject at hand here. Also, my psychologist qualitatively aligned me closely, but not exactly with Asperger's which, in her words, I "grew out of". Additionally, Ive also taught Tae Kwon Do for more than 20 years, and as a result, have had large a large influx of children variably diagnosed with autism. Doctors were recommending activities such as Tae Kwon Do as treatment for the further development of those with Autism. In fact there is one Master (in NY I believe) who has dedicated her entire school to it. I am no expert, but I do have personal experience on several sides of this issue. Dismissing that would be rather unfortunate.
In the future, lets take more time to welcome thoughts that differ from our prejudice, rather than reject them because of it.
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones
Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu
ischool.syr.edu
THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu
________________________________________ From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] on behalf of Terri Senft [tsenft@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:12 PM To: Michael Scarce Cc: Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"
Hi Michael and any other new folks reading here:
Just wanted to quickly jump in to let you know two things:
1. I am in utter agreement with what you have written below, and I thank you for writing it. What's more, based on my familiarity with members of AoIR that goes back more than a decade now, I think I can say with certainty that you weren't the only one who read the comments about autism in the "trolling" thread and thought:
"Uh, no. Also, STFU."
As an 'older' AoIR member, I apologize for not jumping into this sooner. A new person shouldn't have to introduce themselves in this way. Sorry.
2. If disability rights and social media research is an interest of yours, I can tell you AoIR members have produced some *amazing* scholarship in this area. Gerard Goggin, Helen Kennedy and Kathy Mancuso and others could probably give better citations than I could, so I will leave it to them...
3. Welcome to AoIR, really, and if you get to Manchester in Fall, I will buy you a drink and let you look at my astonishing white woman hair. As anyone can tell you, it's often one of the highlights of our annual conference.
Best, Terri
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Michael Scarce <scarce@mac.com> wrote:
Greetings everyone,
This is not exactly the kind of self-introduction I imagined as a new member of AIR, and it has nothing to do with social awkwardness.
I fully understand the research topic is primarily about trolling. My comments here are less about topical tangents, and more about the ethical principles of research conduct and professional values of AIR as a whole.
I have to say that I'm appalled by the framing and discussion of people living with Asperger's Syndrome in these postings.
I'm not especially interested in quibbling about the boundaries of a wide spectrum of highly contested characteristics, traits, and behaviors, even in deference to the diagnostic pathology of the DSM.
For some of us, it's also very much a cultural, social, and political identity from which we do not "suffer." Perhaps it's a personal sensitization to the imposition of syndromes in general, in much the same way I am unwilling to be reduced to an "AIDS patient" or "AIDS victim."
Within a context of broad-based generalizations such as "they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue," I'm truly at a loss for how to respond to the singularities of "the social," "the issue," and uniform "they."
Call me an atypical aspie, but I do have an acute sense of social irony (and even sense of humor) in how writing this might simply pave the way for my dismissal. Do I remain silent and invisible, or do I speak out and risk offering myself as an interim case study for other researchers eager to situate me in their taxonomy of online deviance?
We are more than a singular "issue," more than an arrested development with which others have had close calls and "fortunately grown out of."
"They" are members of your organization. It's extremely difficult to invest and participate in any discourse after having been pre-defined as the Other who has yet to speak.
Michael Scarce University of California San Francisco
On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Thomas Jones wrote:
It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha!
I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew out of it" so to speak.
There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous purposes.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k@gmail.com <mailto:athina.k@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to them as trolls : ) but I get your point.
About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark. Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly more complex issues at stake.
I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point this out.
Cheers
Athina
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto: tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness - akin to those with aspergers.
It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia.
So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they are motivated.
Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl@gmail.com <mailto:bbakiogl@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that hacked and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups: Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining operations. So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching the topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist language/slurs that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last decade or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring them the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung who was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made it to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of it, of course. Good times :P
But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need to know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am willing to learn...
BsB
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour@gmail.com <mailto:kkontour@gmail.com>> wrote:
My two cents: not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored, there are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink, pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure". By contrast, they can also foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views (it depends on how other folks deal with the trolls). I would count trolls as being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of online ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Thanks,
Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media Lawrence University
http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/
-- "Come to the dark side, we have cookies." ~Anonymous _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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-- <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/> Dr Athina Karatzogianni< http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/kara...
Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences The University of Hull United Kingdom HU6 7RX T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790 F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107 E: a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni@hull.ac.uk>
Download my work for free here: http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
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Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003
home: *www.terrisenft.net <http://goog_689013053>** *(needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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--
Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003
home: www.terrisenft.net (needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft
-- Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003 home: www.terrisenft.net (needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft
Dear all, Before this becomes far more heat than fire (perhaps we are too late--shall we change the subject line to citations on research on flaming?) I just want to insert a friendly reminder that this list comes with a set of rules that require civility. Those rules are listed here: http://aoir.org/email-list/ They include the following passage: """ Diverse opinions are welcome. The readership of air-l includes people from a wide variety of professional, disciplinary, methodological, and national traditions. List participants are expected to respect these differences. We ask that you maintain a tone of civility and use good judgment in your posts: disagreements are to be expected, but blatant rudeness, personal attacks, lack of respect, and monopolization of air-l to further one’s own agenda are not expected nor will they be tolerated. """ Each message you send goes out to just shy of 4,500 internet researchers around the world. In other words, if you wouldn't say it at an academic conference, please don't say it here. This is a good place to put on your academic pants, and play scholar. There are plenty of places online that seem far more welcoming to personal invective and passionate speechifying. If I were writing this email in those forums, I would word it much differently. I don't intend to chill discussion, but I would prefer the discussion were a bit more chill. Best, Alex -- -- // // This email is // [x] assumed public and may be blogged / forwarded. // [ ] assumed to be private, please ask before redistributing. // // Alexander C. Halavais, ciberflâneur // http://alex.halavais.net //
Okay, I'll go first. I re-read the longer note I wrote to Thomas earlier, and I want to apologize for what is clearly its condescending language. It's a tone I take when I feel angry and misunderstood, and I should know by now it never helps situations. Doesn't every offensive person online perceive themselves as defending themselves in some way? Add self-righteousness to the mix, and blech. Thomas, and anyone else who read what I wrote and felt disrespected by my tone: I am honestly sorry. As much as I still stand by what I said, I could have said it differently, because to be honest, I would have never spoken to you like that to your face. Now... With that said, I'd now like to ask if people have cites for literature that uses discourse analysis to suss out 'best practices' in online discussions where conflicts occur. Susan Herring or someone else, maybe? I am awesome and so are YOU, Terri On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Alexander Halavais <halavais@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear all,
Before this becomes far more heat than fire (perhaps we are too late--shall we change the subject line to citations on research on flaming?) I just want to insert a friendly reminder that this list comes with a set of rules that require civility. Those rules are listed here: http://aoir.org/email-list/
They include the following passage:
""" Diverse opinions are welcome. The readership of air-l includes people from a wide variety of professional, disciplinary, methodological, and national traditions. List participants are expected to respect these differences. We ask that you maintain a tone of civility and use good judgment in your posts: disagreements are to be expected, but blatant rudeness, personal attacks, lack of respect, and monopolization of air-l to further one’s own agenda are not expected nor will they be tolerated. """
Each message you send goes out to just shy of 4,500 internet researchers around the world. In other words, if you wouldn't say it at an academic conference, please don't say it here. This is a good place to put on your academic pants, and play scholar. There are plenty of places online that seem far more welcoming to personal invective and passionate speechifying. If I were writing this email in those forums, I would word it much differently.
I don't intend to chill discussion, but I would prefer the discussion were a bit more chill.
Best,
Alex
-- -- // // This email is // [x] assumed public and may be blogged / forwarded. // [ ] assumed to be private, please ask before redistributing. // // Alexander C. Halavais, ciberflâneur // http://alex.halavais.net // _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003 home: www.terrisenft.net (needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft
Dear air list moderators, I just want to insert a friendly reminder that this list
comes with a set of rules that require civility. Those rules are listed here: http://aoir.org/email-list/
They include the following passage: etc
yes but some trolls are also trolling about other being trolls. hehe http://www.bodyspacesociety.eu/2012/03/24/pour-une-sociologie-du-troll/#more... sorry that research is in french but it might be worth contatcting Antonio A. Casilli On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Terri Senft <tsenft@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I'll go first.
I re-read the longer note I wrote to Thomas earlier, and I want to apologize for what is clearly its condescending language. It's a tone I take when I feel angry and misunderstood, and I should know by now it never helps situations. Doesn't every offensive person online perceive themselves as defending themselves in some way? Add self-righteousness to the mix, and blech.
Thomas, and anyone else who read what I wrote and felt disrespected by my tone: I am honestly sorry. As much as I still stand by what I said, I could have said it differently, because to be honest, I would have never spoken to you like that to your face.
Now...
With that said, I'd now like to ask if people have cites for literature that uses discourse analysis to suss out 'best practices' in online discussions where conflicts occur. Susan Herring or someone else, maybe?
I am awesome and so are YOU,
Terri
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Alexander Halavais <halavais@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear all,
Before this becomes far more heat than fire (perhaps we are too late--shall we change the subject line to citations on research on flaming?) I just want to insert a friendly reminder that this list comes with a set of rules that require civility. Those rules are listed here: http://aoir.org/email-list/
They include the following passage:
""" Diverse opinions are welcome. The readership of air-l includes people from a wide variety of professional, disciplinary, methodological, and national traditions. List participants are expected to respect these differences. We ask that you maintain a tone of civility and use good judgment in your posts: disagreements are to be expected, but blatant rudeness, personal attacks, lack of respect, and monopolization of air-l to further one’s own agenda are not expected nor will they be tolerated. """
Each message you send goes out to just shy of 4,500 internet researchers around the world. In other words, if you wouldn't say it at an academic conference, please don't say it here. This is a good place to put on your academic pants, and play scholar. There are plenty of places online that seem far more welcoming to personal invective and passionate speechifying. If I were writing this email in those forums, I would word it much differently.
I don't intend to chill discussion, but I would prefer the discussion were a bit more chill.
Best,
Alex
-- -- // // This email is // [x] assumed public and may be blogged / forwarded. // [ ] assumed to be private, please ask before redistributing. // // Alexander C. Halavais, ciberflâneur // http://alex.halavais.net // _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Dr. Theresa M. Senft Global Liberal Studies Program School of Arts & Sciences New York University 726 Broadway NY NY 10003
home: www.terrisenft.net (needs a serious updating) facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft twitter: @terrisenft _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Laetitia
Clearly I should have paid attention to this thread a while ago!
That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible.
This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195
Calcanis doesn't pass muster as "research" , in my honest opinion. He's in the venture capital, startup, yell-loudly-at-people and get a story posted on TechCrunch-or-whatever, scene. Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Asperger's syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'.
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones
I think you should take a straw poll of the faculty at Syracuse and see how many of them will agree that it's okay to flatten / construe internet trolling down as being Aspergers-driven. This is one of those things where even *asking the question* is likely to get you a very hostile reaction from many folks... The results should be entertaining. --elijah
Elijah, Calcanis doesn't need to pass muster as "research", nor was his observation about such behavior referenced as such. You act as if only researchers are privy to make socio-technological observations. That is disappointing. You say that: "Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Aspergers syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'." Interesting... Researchers been doing this since the the dawn of time, and too, have been labeled as "obnoxious", "unconscionable", and "borderline vile". Though such assertions have usually come from the ignorant and close-minded, more telling of yourself than of me, or Calcanis. No one has "flattened / construed" the issue down to trolling as being "Aspergers-driven". Such a lack of attention to detail is concerning from a researcher, especially when conveyed in such a condescending tone. Had you bothered to not only read, but attempt to understand the basic premise of Calcanis' assertion, you would have understood what he was saying - a tragic misstep in your response. Calcanis asserts that people who do most of their communicating online end up *mimicking* Aspergers because they are imposing, by the vehicles of CMC (keyboard, monitor, text, etc), many of the same disadvantages of those with Aspergers, on themselves due to the inability to recognize non-verbal queues through said vehicles. In short, text lacks context - this shouldnt be a terribly prophetic to anyone on this list. The recognition of non-verbal queues is an issue that computer/software/internet engineers have been striving to add to CMC since the computer/email/internet's inception. What, exactly, do you think the point of emoticons was for? Why, exactly, do you think we have evolved from emoticons, to audio and video in online communications? We have moved, in a non-inclusive pseudo-chronological list, from Usenet, message boards/IRC, instant messaging, blogging, photo-blogging, video blogging, tweeting, and now rolling them all into collaboration apps such as Skype, WebEx, etc,, and now vocal AI queues like Siri. Aside from the technological maturity of the infrastructure, it was to add context to communication. When context is removed from communication - nonverbal responses, facial expressions, etc, - so is recognition of, and/or use of empathy. Lack of empathy in social/digital communications is evidence of, and/or often categorically described as the behavior we understand as "trolling". Some engage in this behavior willingly and cognitively, others are oblivious - the results however are still the same - that person is a "troll". This is not a catch-all explanation for the vast spectrum which is trolling, nor was it ever intended to be, but it is an observation with merit. Regardless of the "validity" of Calcanis' status or quality of work as a "researcher", categorically rejecting the notion that he may have a point is absent traits of any sound researcher. Investigating such claims is the point of research, and there has been no clear consensus on this particular issue. Interestingly enough, you rush to judgement. As far as engaging my faculty, there are no need for straw polls where open minds exist. Thank you, Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu> ischool.syr.edu<http://ischool.syr.edu> THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu<http://campaign.syr.edu> On Aug 5, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com<mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com>> wrote: Clearly I should have paid attention to this thread a while ago! That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible. This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195 Calcanis doesn't pass muster as "research" , in my honest opinion. He's in the venture capital, startup, yell-loudly-at-people and get a story posted on TechCrunch-or-whatever, scene. Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Asperger's syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'. Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones I think you should take a straw poll of the faculty at Syracuse and see how many of them will agree that it's okay to flatten / construe internet trolling down as being Aspergers-driven. This is one of those things where even *asking the question* is likely to get you a very hostile reaction from many folks... The results should be entertaining. --elijah
Without engaging with the substance of this debate, I'd like to offer up a simple cautionary observation: AoIR is a community of professional researchers/teachers/academics. People develop reputations within that community. Those reputations cast a shadow upon future interactions, as all reputations do. Particularly for members of the community who are earlier in their career and don't have a body of work that they are otherwise known for (read: graduate students), it's worth keeping this in mind when contributing to the list. Someday you will be applying for academic jobs. People will see your file and remember you from your contributions to AoIR. That can either be an asset or a burden. Regards, DK On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
Elijah,
Calcanis doesn't need to pass muster as "research", nor was his observation about such behavior referenced as such. You act as if only researchers are privy to make socio-technological observations. That is disappointing.
You say that: "Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Aspergers syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'."
Interesting... Researchers been doing this since the the dawn of time, and too, have been labeled as "obnoxious", "unconscionable", and "borderline vile". Though such assertions have usually come from the ignorant and close-minded, more telling of yourself than of me, or Calcanis.
No one has "flattened / construed" the issue down to trolling as being "Aspergers-driven". Such a lack of attention to detail is concerning from a researcher, especially when conveyed in such a condescending tone. Had you bothered to not only read, but attempt to understand the basic premise of Calcanis' assertion, you would have understood what he was saying - a tragic misstep in your response.
Calcanis asserts that people who do most of their communicating online end up *mimicking* Aspergers because they are imposing, by the vehicles of CMC (keyboard, monitor, text, etc), many of the same disadvantages of those with Aspergers, on themselves due to the inability to recognize non-verbal queues through said vehicles. In short, text lacks context - this shouldnt be a terribly prophetic to anyone on this list.
The recognition of non-verbal queues is an issue that computer/software/internet engineers have been striving to add to CMC since the computer/email/internet's inception. What, exactly, do you think the point of emoticons was for? Why, exactly, do you think we have evolved from emoticons, to audio and video in online communications?
We have moved, in a non-inclusive pseudo-chronological list, from Usenet, message boards/IRC, instant messaging, blogging, photo-blogging, video blogging, tweeting, and now rolling them all into collaboration apps such as Skype, WebEx, etc,, and now vocal AI queues like Siri. Aside from the technological maturity of the infrastructure, it was to add context to communication.
When context is removed from communication - nonverbal responses, facial expressions, etc, - so is recognition of, and/or use of empathy. Lack of empathy in social/digital communications is evidence of, and/or often categorically described as the behavior we understand as "trolling". Some engage in this behavior willingly and cognitively, others are oblivious - the results however are still the same - that person is a "troll". This is not a catch-all explanation for the vast spectrum which is trolling, nor was it ever intended to be, but it is an observation with merit.
Regardless of the "validity" of Calcanis' status or quality of work as a "researcher", categorically rejecting the notion that he may have a point is absent traits of any sound researcher. Investigating such claims is the point of research, and there has been no clear consensus on this particular issue. Interestingly enough, you rush to judgement.
As far as engaging my faculty, there are no need for straw polls where open minds exist.
Thank you,
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>
ischool.syr.edu<http://ischool.syr.edu>
THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu<http://campaign.syr.edu>
On Aug 5, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com<mailto: elijah.wright@gmail.com>> wrote:
Clearly I should have paid attention to this thread a while ago!
That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible.
This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195
Calcanis doesn't pass muster as "research" , in my honest opinion. He's in the venture capital, startup, yell-loudly-at-people and get a story posted on TechCrunch-or-whatever, scene.
Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Asperger's syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'.
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones
I think you should take a straw poll of the faculty at Syracuse and see how many of them will agree that it's okay to flatten / construe internet trolling down as being Aspergers-driven. This is one of those things where even *asking the question* is likely to get you a very hostile reaction from many folks...
The results should be entertaining.
--elijah
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Dave Karpf, PhD Assistant Professor George Washington University School of Media and Public Affairs www.davidkarpf.com davekarpf@gmail.com Author of *The MoveOn Effect: The Unexpected Transformation of American Political Advocacy<http://www.amazon.com/The-MoveOn-Effect-Unexpected-Transformation/dp/0199898383/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1> *(Oxford University Press)
I personally don't plan to have a career in academia. Further, I value standing up for oneself and one's beliefs substantially more than bowing to naivety or censorship of "seniors", especially in the presence of behavior antithetical to the discipline of research itself. My character and value, personally and professionally, is not so frail as to be dictated by the opinion or approval of others. I hope you understand that your credibility too is just as subject as mine as these discussions evolve. Oddly, the behavior demonstrated throughout this discourse closely aligns to cyber bullying, and on an email list of professional academics and researchers no less. This is not the solution; this is the problem. Do not make the mistake in assuming that because I am a graduate student that I am not already established in my career. Such assumptions, like many others presented in this discourse, are no more favorable to the credibility or reputation of established researchers either, regardless of their tenure. Given the email responses on-list thus far, I see little professionalism or reputation reflective its spirit or purpose. Perhaps that is the problem, too much concern for reputation first, substance second. Given the numerous off-list emails I've received in this conversation from others, I now understand their testimonials - why so many are discouraged from using the list, or have stopped participating altogether. I take this time to acknowledge them, bring this issue to light, and thank them for their support. Perhaps I'll act on their recommendation to follow their lead. My time is too valuable for such behavior. But let's hope I need not remind you and everyone else - you too were all graduate students once. I hope your own faculty didn't censor your thoughts as much as you attempt to do here. If so, you have defeated the entire purpose of academia, an unfortunate shame in my opinion. I accept that not all will agree. Thank you. Thomas Jones IT Consultant @OtherTomJones http://about.me/othertomjones http://theothertomjones.com Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:10 PM, "Dave Karpf" <davekarpf@gmail.com<mailto:davekarpf@gmail.com>> wrote: Without engaging with the substance of this debate, I'd like to offer up a simple cautionary observation: AoIR is a community of professional researchers/teachers/academics. People develop reputations within that community. Those reputations cast a shadow upon future interactions, as all reputations do. Particularly for members of the community who are earlier in their career and don't have a body of work that they are otherwise known for (read: graduate students), it's worth keeping this in mind when contributing to the list. Someday you will be applying for academic jobs. People will see your file and remember you from your contributions to AoIR. That can either be an asset or a burden. Regards, DK On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Elijah, Calcanis doesn't need to pass muster as "research", nor was his observation about such behavior referenced as such. You act as if only researchers are privy to make socio-technological observations. That is disappointing. You say that: "Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Aspergers syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'." Interesting... Researchers been doing this since the the dawn of time, and too, have been labeled as "obnoxious", "unconscionable", and "borderline vile". Though such assertions have usually come from the ignorant and close-minded, more telling of yourself than of me, or Calcanis. No one has "flattened / construed" the issue down to trolling as being "Aspergers-driven". Such a lack of attention to detail is concerning from a researcher, especially when conveyed in such a condescending tone. Had you bothered to not only read, but attempt to understand the basic premise of Calcanis' assertion, you would have understood what he was saying - a tragic misstep in your response. Calcanis asserts that people who do most of their communicating online end up *mimicking* Aspergers because they are imposing, by the vehicles of CMC (keyboard, monitor, text, etc), many of the same disadvantages of those with Aspergers, on themselves due to the inability to recognize non-verbal queues through said vehicles. In short, text lacks context - this shouldnt be a terribly prophetic to anyone on this list. The recognition of non-verbal queues is an issue that computer/software/internet engineers have been striving to add to CMC since the computer/email/internet's inception. What, exactly, do you think the point of emoticons was for? Why, exactly, do you think we have evolved from emoticons, to audio and video in online communications? We have moved, in a non-inclusive pseudo-chronological list, from Usenet, message boards/IRC, instant messaging, blogging, photo-blogging, video blogging, tweeting, and now rolling them all into collaboration apps such as Skype, WebEx, etc,, and now vocal AI queues like Siri. Aside from the technological maturity of the infrastructure, it was to add context to communication. When context is removed from communication - nonverbal responses, facial expressions, etc, - so is recognition of, and/or use of empathy. Lack of empathy in social/digital communications is evidence of, and/or often categorically described as the behavior we understand as "trolling". Some engage in this behavior willingly and cognitively, others are oblivious - the results however are still the same - that person is a "troll". This is not a catch-all explanation for the vast spectrum which is trolling, nor was it ever intended to be, but it is an observation with merit. Regardless of the "validity" of Calcanis' status or quality of work as a "researcher", categorically rejecting the notion that he may have a point is absent traits of any sound researcher. Investigating such claims is the point of research, and there has been no clear consensus on this particular issue. Interestingly enough, you rush to judgement. As far as engaging my faculty, there are no need for straw polls where open minds exist. Thank you, Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454<tel:919.809.9454> e tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu><mailto:tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>> ischool.syr.edu<http://ischool.syr.edu><http://ischool.syr.edu> THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu<http://campaign.syr.edu><http://campaign.syr.edu> On Aug 5, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com<mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com><mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com<mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com>>> wrote: Clearly I should have paid attention to this thread a while ago! That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible. This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195 Calcanis doesn't pass muster as "research" , in my honest opinion. He's in the venture capital, startup, yell-loudly-at-people and get a story posted on TechCrunch-or-whatever, scene. Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Asperger's syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'. Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones I think you should take a straw poll of the faculty at Syracuse and see how many of them will agree that it's okay to flatten / construe internet trolling down as being Aspergers-driven. This is one of those things where even *asking the question* is likely to get you a very hostile reaction from many folks... The results should be entertaining. --elijah _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ -- Dave Karpf, PhD Assistant Professor George Washington University School of Media and Public Affairs www.davidkarpf.com<http://www.davidkarpf.com> davekarpf@gmail.com<mailto:davekarpf@gmail.com> Author of The MoveOn Effect: The Unexpected Transformation of American Political Advocacy<http://www.amazon.com/The-MoveOn-Effect-Unexpected-Transformation/dp/0199898383/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1> (Oxford University Press)
Well, I offered the same advice here that I offer to my graduate students. I'm fine with making that public and having it affect my credibility. All writing is a form of self-censorship. The author makes decisions regarding which thoughts are worthy of expression to a given audience, and the author makes decisions about the manner in which those expressions should best be communicated. Plenty of ideas are "censored" in order to achieve clarity in writing. I'm not sure what "behavior antithetical to the discipline of research itself" you're referring to. I'm also not sure what you consider "the entire purpose of academia" to be. But if it can be so easily subverted by a few words of cautionary advice, then it must be a brittle thing indeed. Regards, DK On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
I personally don't plan to have a career in academia. Further, I value standing up for oneself and one's beliefs substantially more than bowing to naivety or censorship of "seniors", especially in the presence of behavior antithetical to the discipline of research itself.
My character and value, personally and professionally, is not so frail as to be dictated by the opinion or approval of others. I hope you understand that your credibility too is just as subject as mine as these discussions evolve.
Oddly, the behavior demonstrated throughout this discourse closely aligns to cyber bullying, and on an email list of professional academics and researchers no less. This is not the solution; this is the problem.
Do not make the mistake in assuming that because I am a graduate student that I am not already established in my career. Such assumptions, like many others presented in this discourse, are no more favorable to the credibility or reputation of established researchers either, regardless of their tenure.
Given the email responses on-list thus far, I see little professionalism or reputation reflective its spirit or purpose. Perhaps that is the problem, too much concern for reputation first, substance second.
Given the numerous off-list emails I've received in this conversation from others, I now understand their testimonials - why so many are discouraged from using the list, or have stopped participating altogether. I take this time to acknowledge them, bring this issue to light, and thank them for their support. Perhaps I'll act on their recommendation to follow their lead. My time is too valuable for such behavior.
But let's hope I need not remind you and everyone else - you too were all graduate students once. I hope your own faculty didn't censor your thoughts as much as you attempt to do here. If so, you have defeated the entire purpose of academia, an unfortunate shame in my opinion. I accept that not all will agree.
Thank you.
Thomas Jones IT Consultant @OtherTomJones http://about.me/othertomjones http://theothertomjones.com
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:10 PM, "Dave Karpf" <davekarpf@gmail.com> wrote:
Without engaging with the substance of this debate, I'd like to offer up a simple cautionary observation:
AoIR is a community of professional researchers/teachers/academics. People develop reputations within that community. Those reputations cast a shadow upon future interactions, as all reputations do.
Particularly for members of the community who are earlier in their career and don't have a body of work that they are otherwise known for (read: graduate students), it's worth keeping this in mind when contributing to the list. Someday you will be applying for academic jobs. People will see your file and remember you from your contributions to AoIR. That can either be an asset or a burden.
Regards, DK
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
Elijah,
Calcanis doesn't need to pass muster as "research", nor was his observation about such behavior referenced as such. You act as if only researchers are privy to make socio-technological observations. That is disappointing.
You say that: "Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Aspergers syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'."
Interesting... Researchers been doing this since the the dawn of time, and too, have been labeled as "obnoxious", "unconscionable", and "borderline vile". Though such assertions have usually come from the ignorant and close-minded, more telling of yourself than of me, or Calcanis.
No one has "flattened / construed" the issue down to trolling as being "Aspergers-driven". Such a lack of attention to detail is concerning from a researcher, especially when conveyed in such a condescending tone. Had you bothered to not only read, but attempt to understand the basic premise of Calcanis' assertion, you would have understood what he was saying - a tragic misstep in your response.
Calcanis asserts that people who do most of their communicating online end up *mimicking* Aspergers because they are imposing, by the vehicles of CMC (keyboard, monitor, text, etc), many of the same disadvantages of those with Aspergers, on themselves due to the inability to recognize non-verbal queues through said vehicles. In short, text lacks context - this shouldnt be a terribly prophetic to anyone on this list.
The recognition of non-verbal queues is an issue that computer/software/internet engineers have been striving to add to CMC since the computer/email/internet's inception. What, exactly, do you think the point of emoticons was for? Why, exactly, do you think we have evolved from emoticons, to audio and video in online communications?
We have moved, in a non-inclusive pseudo-chronological list, from Usenet, message boards/IRC, instant messaging, blogging, photo-blogging, video blogging, tweeting, and now rolling them all into collaboration apps such as Skype, WebEx, etc,, and now vocal AI queues like Siri. Aside from the technological maturity of the infrastructure, it was to add context to communication.
When context is removed from communication - nonverbal responses, facial expressions, etc, - so is recognition of, and/or use of empathy. Lack of empathy in social/digital communications is evidence of, and/or often categorically described as the behavior we understand as "trolling". Some engage in this behavior willingly and cognitively, others are oblivious - the results however are still the same - that person is a "troll". This is not a catch-all explanation for the vast spectrum which is trolling, nor was it ever intended to be, but it is an observation with merit.
Regardless of the "validity" of Calcanis' status or quality of work as a "researcher", categorically rejecting the notion that he may have a point is absent traits of any sound researcher. Investigating such claims is the point of research, and there has been no clear consensus on this particular issue. Interestingly enough, you rush to judgement.
As far as engaging my faculty, there are no need for straw polls where open minds exist.
Thank you,
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454 e tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>
ischool.syr.edu<http://ischool.syr.edu>
THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu<http://campaign.syr.edu>
On Aug 5, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com <mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com>> wrote:
Clearly I should have paid attention to this thread a while ago!
That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible.
This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195
Calcanis doesn't pass muster as "research" , in my honest opinion. He's in the venture capital, startup, yell-loudly-at-people and get a story posted on TechCrunch-or-whatever, scene.
Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Asperger's syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'.
Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones
I think you should take a straw poll of the faculty at Syracuse and see how many of them will agree that it's okay to flatten / construe internet trolling down as being Aspergers-driven. This is one of those things where even *asking the question* is likely to get you a very hostile reaction from many folks...
The results should be entertaining.
--elijah
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Dave Karpf, PhD
Assistant Professor George Washington University School of Media and Public Affairs
www.davidkarpf.com davekarpf@gmail.com
Author of *The MoveOn Effect: The Unexpected Transformation of American Political Advocacy<http://www.amazon.com/The-MoveOn-Effect-Unexpected-Transformation/dp/0199898383/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1> *(Oxford University Press)
-- Dave Karpf, PhD Assistant Professor George Washington University School of Media and Public Affairs www.davidkarpf.com davekarpf@gmail.com Author of *The MoveOn Effect: The Unexpected Transformation of American Political Advocacy<http://www.amazon.com/The-MoveOn-Effect-Unexpected-Transformation/dp/0199898383/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1> *(Oxford University Press)
The entire message wasn't aimed at you or your advice per se, but more so the discussion in its entirety. Also, I'm not speaking of or referring to self-censorship. Yes I agree that some of our own thoughts are censored when writing. Though the issue at hand revolves around censorship of others, not oneself. But perhaps much more self censorship should be exercised given the totality, or quality of the full conversation. Re: Behavior - researching requires application of an open mind, also acceptance of views from those which opinions differ. Re: Academia - I have known no professor to discourage pursuit of a volatile subject, or to refuse to even listen and/or accept ideas within it regardless of their personal agreement. This is how we cultivate talent - how we grow. This too requires and open mind. Thank you, Thomas Jones @othertomjones http://about.me/othertomjones Sent from my iPhone On Aug 5, 2012, at 11:19 PM, "Dave Karpf" <davekarpf@gmail.com<mailto:davekarpf@gmail.com>> wrote: Well, I offered the same advice here that I offer to my graduate students. I'm fine with making that public and having it affect my credibility. All writing is a form of self-censorship. The author makes decisions regarding which thoughts are worthy of expression to a given audience, and the author makes decisions about the manner in which those expressions should best be communicated. Plenty of ideas are "censored" in order to achieve clarity in writing. I'm not sure what "behavior antithetical to the discipline of research itself" you're referring to. I'm also not sure what you consider "the entire purpose of academia" to be. But if it can be so easily subverted by a few words of cautionary advice, then it must be a brittle thing indeed. Regards, DK On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: I personally don't plan to have a career in academia. Further, I value standing up for oneself and one's beliefs substantially more than bowing to naivety or censorship of "seniors", especially in the presence of behavior antithetical to the discipline of research itself. My character and value, personally and professionally, is not so frail as to be dictated by the opinion or approval of others. I hope you understand that your credibility too is just as subject as mine as these discussions evolve. Oddly, the behavior demonstrated throughout this discourse closely aligns to cyber bullying, and on an email list of professional academics and researchers no less. This is not the solution; this is the problem. Do not make the mistake in assuming that because I am a graduate student that I am not already established in my career. Such assumptions, like many others presented in this discourse, are no more favorable to the credibility or reputation of established researchers either, regardless of their tenure. Given the email responses on-list thus far, I see little professionalism or reputation reflective its spirit or purpose. Perhaps that is the problem, too much concern for reputation first, substance second. Given the numerous off-list emails I've received in this conversation from others, I now understand their testimonials - why so many are discouraged from using the list, or have stopped participating altogether. I take this time to acknowledge them, bring this issue to light, and thank them for their support. Perhaps I'll act on their recommendation to follow their lead. My time is too valuable for such behavior. But let's hope I need not remind you and everyone else - you too were all graduate students once. I hope your own faculty didn't censor your thoughts as much as you attempt to do here. If so, you have defeated the entire purpose of academia, an unfortunate shame in my opinion. I accept that not all will agree. Thank you. Thomas Jones IT Consultant @OtherTomJones http://about.me/othertomjones http://theothertomjones.com Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:10 PM, "Dave Karpf" <davekarpf@gmail.com<mailto:davekarpf@gmail.com>> wrote: Without engaging with the substance of this debate, I'd like to offer up a simple cautionary observation: AoIR is a community of professional researchers/teachers/academics. People develop reputations within that community. Those reputations cast a shadow upon future interactions, as all reputations do. Particularly for members of the community who are earlier in their career and don't have a body of work that they are otherwise known for (read: graduate students), it's worth keeping this in mind when contributing to the list. Someday you will be applying for academic jobs. People will see your file and remember you from your contributions to AoIR. That can either be an asset or a burden. Regards, DK On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>> wrote: Elijah, Calcanis doesn't need to pass muster as "research", nor was his observation about such behavior referenced as such. You act as if only researchers are privy to make socio-technological observations. That is disappointing. You say that: "Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Aspergers syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'." Interesting... Researchers been doing this since the the dawn of time, and too, have been labeled as "obnoxious", "unconscionable", and "borderline vile". Though such assertions have usually come from the ignorant and close-minded, more telling of yourself than of me, or Calcanis. No one has "flattened / construed" the issue down to trolling as being "Aspergers-driven". Such a lack of attention to detail is concerning from a researcher, especially when conveyed in such a condescending tone. Had you bothered to not only read, but attempt to understand the basic premise of Calcanis' assertion, you would have understood what he was saying - a tragic misstep in your response. Calcanis asserts that people who do most of their communicating online end up *mimicking* Aspergers because they are imposing, by the vehicles of CMC (keyboard, monitor, text, etc), many of the same disadvantages of those with Aspergers, on themselves due to the inability to recognize non-verbal queues through said vehicles. In short, text lacks context - this shouldnt be a terribly prophetic to anyone on this list. The recognition of non-verbal queues is an issue that computer/software/internet engineers have been striving to add to CMC since the computer/email/internet's inception. What, exactly, do you think the point of emoticons was for? Why, exactly, do you think we have evolved from emoticons, to audio and video in online communications? We have moved, in a non-inclusive pseudo-chronological list, from Usenet, message boards/IRC, instant messaging, blogging, photo-blogging, video blogging, tweeting, and now rolling them all into collaboration apps such as Skype, WebEx, etc,, and now vocal AI queues like Siri. Aside from the technological maturity of the infrastructure, it was to add context to communication. When context is removed from communication - nonverbal responses, facial expressions, etc, - so is recognition of, and/or use of empathy. Lack of empathy in social/digital communications is evidence of, and/or often categorically described as the behavior we understand as "trolling". Some engage in this behavior willingly and cognitively, others are oblivious - the results however are still the same - that person is a "troll". This is not a catch-all explanation for the vast spectrum which is trolling, nor was it ever intended to be, but it is an observation with merit. Regardless of the "validity" of Calcanis' status or quality of work as a "researcher", categorically rejecting the notion that he may have a point is absent traits of any sound researcher. Investigating such claims is the point of research, and there has been no clear consensus on this particular issue. Interestingly enough, you rush to judgement. As far as engaging my faculty, there are no need for straw polls where open minds exist. Thank you, Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones Syracuse University Hinds Hall Syracuse, New York 13244 t 919.809.9454<tel:919.809.9454> e tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu><mailto:tajone02@syr.edu<mailto:tajone02@syr.edu>> ischool.syr.edu<http://ischool.syr.edu><http://ischool.syr.edu> THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY campaign.syr.edu<http://campaign.syr.edu><http://campaign.syr.edu> On Aug 5, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com<mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com><mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com<mailto:elijah.wright@gmail.com>>> wrote: Clearly I should have paid attention to this thread a while ago! That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible. This should get you started: http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195 Calcanis doesn't pass muster as "research" , in my honest opinion. He's in the venture capital, startup, yell-loudly-at-people and get a story posted on TechCrunch-or-whatever, scene. Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Asperger's syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'. Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies http://about.me/othertomjones I think you should take a straw poll of the faculty at Syracuse and see how many of them will agree that it's okay to flatten / construe internet trolling down as being Aspergers-driven. This is one of those things where even *asking the question* is likely to get you a very hostile reaction from many folks... The results should be entertaining. --elijah _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L@listserv.aoir.org> mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ -- Dave Karpf, PhD Assistant Professor George Washington University School of Media and Public Affairs www.davidkarpf.com<http://www.davidkarpf.com> davekarpf@gmail.com<mailto:davekarpf@gmail.com> Author of The MoveOn Effect: The Unexpected Transformation of American Political Advocacy<http://www.amazon.com/The-MoveOn-Effect-Unexpected-Transformation/dp/0199898383/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1> (Oxford University Press) -- Dave Karpf, PhD Assistant Professor George Washington University School of Media and Public Affairs www.davidkarpf.com<http://www.davidkarpf.com> davekarpf@gmail.com<mailto:davekarpf@gmail.com> Author of The MoveOn Effect: The Unexpected Transformation of American Political Advocacy<http://www.amazon.com/The-MoveOn-Effect-Unexpected-Transformation/dp/0199898383/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1> (Oxford University Press)
Oddly, the behavior demonstrated throughout this discourse closely aligns to cyber bullying, and on an email list of professional academics and researchers no less. This is not the solution; this is the problem.
Starting over: Hi Tom, welcome to the list! :-) Tom - what you possibly don't know - there are several people on the list with Aspergers or coming from some other location "on the spectrum" who've been vocal about it. I deal with someone with Aspergers-ish issues *every day*. He's 15, not an internet troll, and having a direct comparison made between internet trolling and what Aspergers is like is just painful to me. Being an 'jerk' or a troll and having Aspergers or other autism-spectrum symptoms are pretty different. :p There are a lot of researchers in the area of disability studies doing interesting work - I'm not really very aware of anyone doing work that crosses disability studies with internet research, but I am going to go ask a friend now if they do know of some - it seems to me that there's a nexus of interest there that someone should be exploring. You're right to point it out, and I want to acknowledge that I see the value in having you point to it, even tho I don't really agree with how you went about it. best, --elijah
P.S. to Tom - I know I can be a jerk, and hard to deal with, and sometimes suck at communicating - but I 110% mean well to and for everyone, and want you to be happy with me, the other people on the list, and the world. Happy-go-lucky-pre-coffee-me is kinda different than the me that snipes at people late at night ;-) best (with ponies and rainbows, even!), --e On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com> wrote:
Oddly, the behavior demonstrated throughout this discourse closely aligns to cyber bullying, and on an email list of professional academics and researchers no less. This is not the solution; this is the problem.
Starting over: Hi Tom, welcome to the list! :-)
Tom - what you possibly don't know - there are several people on the list with Aspergers or coming from some other location "on the spectrum" who've been vocal about it.
I deal with someone with Aspergers-ish issues *every day*. He's 15, not an internet troll, and having a direct comparison made between internet trolling and what Aspergers is like is just painful to me. Being an 'jerk' or a troll and having Aspergers or other autism-spectrum symptoms are pretty different. :p
There are a lot of researchers in the area of disability studies doing interesting work - I'm not really very aware of anyone doing work that crosses disability studies with internet research, but I am going to go ask a friend now if they do know of some - it seems to me that there's a nexus of interest there that someone should be exploring. You're right to point it out, and I want to acknowledge that I see the value in having you point to it, even tho I don't really agree with how you went about it.
best,
--elijah
Hi everyone, I am new to posting in this group, although I do read through and use many posts for helping my own research into various subject... Firstly, Elijah...I apologise for replying directly to you... but I wasnt sure how to post my reply to everyone so this post isn't directed at you, it is to everyone who has contributed to this thread.... OK here goes with my contribution. I have read through almost every post concerning this topic...and being a mother of a grown up son with Asperger's (diagnosed severe Asperger's bordering cassic Autism) I have to say I have found some of the posts quite upsetting....and many comforting - thank you to those who understand a bit more about Asperger's than others.While I can, with as much non bias as I can muster, see where some might, at a push, relate the lack of empathy found in trolling with a lack of empathy found in many individuals with Asperger's, I have to point out that is where any kind of similarity ends. Asperger's is a much more complex condition than that of lack of empathy or social awkwardness and to merely describe it as such or to have the name associated with a modern trend of internet behaviour shows a great ignorance of the condition and a great lack of respect to the individuals who live with this disorder every single day. Although individuals with Asperger's are just that...individuals, and no two are alike just as no two non- Asperger's individuals are alike, I do not know of any...(and I know a great deal), who troll or who make, nasty, hateful speech to others with the deliberate intent of causing harm.... something which internet trolls are known for. Do not misunderstand me... I 'get' what is being suggested... that being 'how the lack of social body clues - tone of voice and facial expression etc in internet fed communication is similar to the difficulty those with Asperger's and Autism have understanding body language, tone of voice and facial expression and how this might effect one's ability to empathise', but.. individuals with Asperger's and their lack of or limited empathy does not derive solely from the denial to understand these social clues... their lack of empathy comes from theory of mind related problems... often diagnosed through simple tests - one known as the 'Sally/Anne test'...a test using dolls with no words/body language or facial expressions...There are probably more tests now, but my son was tested using the sally/Anne test many years ago. There is therefore a world of difference between lack of empathy found in those with Asperger's and lack of empathy found in internet fed communication due to the denial of social clues in the written word.It might also be an idea for the researcher to look up research being done into mirror neurones and how they work in helping us empathise.If Tom or anyone else would like to forward the research link to me (as I deleted the original email with the link) I would be most happy to pass it onto a few Asperger's and Autism websites, organisations and experts to enable them to decide just what they think. I'm sure the consultants at The Scottish Centre for Autism at Yorkhill Hospital in Glasgow - some of the best leading experts in the field, would be most interested to read this research. I apologise if I have at any time during this email come across harshly or offended anyone at all... It is not my intention to do so. I only want to try clear up some of the misunderstandings there obviously are regarding Asperger's and the ability to empathise.Yours,Maggie Laidlaw maggie laidlawwww.wix.com/maggie_laidlaw/mfl
From: elijah.wright@gmail.com Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 10:04:22 -0500 To: tajone02@syr.edu CC: Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"
P.S. to Tom - I know I can be a jerk, and hard to deal with, and sometimes suck at communicating - but I 110% mean well to and for everyone, and want you to be happy with me, the other people on the list, and the world.
Happy-go-lucky-pre-coffee-me is kinda different than the me that snipes at people late at night ;-)
best (with ponies and rainbows, even!),
--e
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com> wrote:
Oddly, the behavior demonstrated throughout this discourse closely aligns to cyber bullying, and on an email list of professional academics and researchers no less. This is not the solution; this is the problem.
Starting over: Hi Tom, welcome to the list! :-)
Tom - what you possibly don't know - there are several people on the list with Aspergers or coming from some other location "on the spectrum" who've been vocal about it.
I deal with someone with Aspergers-ish issues *every day*. He's 15, not an internet troll, and having a direct comparison made between internet trolling and what Aspergers is like is just painful to me. Being an 'jerk' or a troll and having Aspergers or other autism-spectrum symptoms are pretty different. :p
There are a lot of researchers in the area of disability studies doing interesting work - I'm not really very aware of anyone doing work that crosses disability studies with internet research, but I am going to go ask a friend now if they do know of some - it seems to me that there's a nexus of interest there that someone should be exploring. You're right to point it out, and I want to acknowledge that I see the value in having you point to it, even tho I don't really agree with how you went about it.
best,
--elijah
The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Interesting. I, myself, found this thread had little to do with Asperger's in and of itself. I found the thread's main points to be about how we go about vetting data and whether news outsets are really 'research'. Journalism v science - both engage in research, just from different perspectives. Are one or both systematic? Is not one natural science and the other a type of philosophy? To generate a hypothesis in science one must use observational principles. Can one use journalism research as observational data? That seemed to be the nutshell I read, anyways. Cheers, Sharon Greenfield Portishead Research & Communications @SharonG On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:54 AM, maggie laidlaw wrote:
Hi everyone, I am new to posting in this group, although I do read through and use many posts for helping my own research into various subject... Firstly, Elijah...I apologise for replying directly to you... but I wasnt sure how to post my reply to everyone so this post isn't directed at you, it is to everyone who has contributed to this thread.... OK here goes with my contribution. I have read through almost every post concerning this topic...and being a mother of a grown up son with Asperger's (diagnosed severe Asperger's bordering cassic Autism) I have to say I have found some of the posts quite upsetting....and many comforting - thank you to those who understand a bit more about Asperger's than others.While I can, with as much non bias as I can muster, see where some might, at a push, relate the lack of empathy found in trolling with a lack of empathy found in many individuals with Asperger's, I have to point out that is where any kind of similarity ends. Asperger's is a much more complex condition than that of lack of empathy or social awkwardness and to merely describe it as such or to have the name associated with a modern trend of internet behaviour shows a great ignorance of the condition and a great lack of respect to the individuals who live with this disorder every single day. Although individuals with Asperger's are just that...individuals, and no two are alike just as no two non- Asperger's individuals are alike, I do not know of any...(and I know a great deal), who troll or who make, nasty, hateful speech to others with the deliberate intent of causing harm.... something which internet trolls are known for. Do not misunderstand me... I 'get' what is being suggested... that being 'how the lack of social body clues - tone of voice and facial expression etc in internet fed communication is similar to the difficulty those with Asperger's and Autism have understanding body language, tone of voice and facial expression and how this might effect one's ability to empathise', but.. individuals with Asperger's and their lack of or limited empathy does not derive solely from the denial to understand these social clues... their lack of empathy comes from theory of mind related problems... often diagnosed through simple tests - one known as the 'Sally/Anne test'...a test using dolls with no words/body language or facial expressions...There are probably more tests now, but my son was tested using the sally/Anne test many years ago. There is therefore a world of difference between lack of empathy found in those with Asperger's and lack of empathy found in internet fed communication due to the denial of social clues in the written word.It might also be an idea for the researcher to look up research being done into mirror neurones and how they work in helping us empathise.If Tom or anyone else would like to forward the research link to me (as I deleted the original email with the link) I would be most happy to pass it onto a few Asperger's and Autism websites, organisations and experts to enable them to decide just what they think. I'm sure the consultants at The Scottish Centre for Autism at Yorkhill Hospital in Glasgow - some of the best leading experts in the field, would be most interested to read this research. I apologise if I have at any time during this email come across harshly or offended anyone at all... It is not my intention to do so. I only want to try clear up some of the misunderstandings there obviously are regarding Asperger's and the ability to empathise.Yours,Maggie Laidlaw
maggie laidlawwww.wix.com/maggie_laidlaw/mfl
From: elijah.wright@gmail.com Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 10:04:22 -0500 To: tajone02@syr.edu CC: Air-L@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"
P.S. to Tom - I know I can be a jerk, and hard to deal with, and sometimes suck at communicating - but I 110% mean well to and for everyone, and want you to be happy with me, the other people on the list, and the world.
Happy-go-lucky-pre-coffee-me is kinda different than the me that snipes at people late at night ;-)
best (with ponies and rainbows, even!),
--e
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Elijah Wright <elijah.wright@gmail.com> wrote:
Oddly, the behavior demonstrated throughout this discourse closely aligns to cyber bullying, and on an email list of professional academics and researchers no less. This is not the solution; this is the problem.
Starting over: Hi Tom, welcome to the list! :-)
Tom - what you possibly don't know - there are several people on the list with Aspergers or coming from some other location "on the spectrum" who've been vocal about it.
I deal with someone with Aspergers-ish issues *every day*. He's 15, not an internet troll, and having a direct comparison made between internet trolling and what Aspergers is like is just painful to me. Being an 'jerk' or a troll and having Aspergers or other autism-spectrum symptoms are pretty different. :p
There are a lot of researchers in the area of disability studies doing interesting work - I'm not really very aware of anyone doing work that crosses disability studies with internet research, but I am going to go ask a friend now if they do know of some - it seems to me that there's a nexus of interest there that someone should be exploring. You're right to point it out, and I want to acknowledge that I see the value in having you point to it, even tho I don't really agree with how you went about it.
best,
--elijah
The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02@syr.edu> wrote:
Calcanis doesn't need to pass muster as "research", nor was his observation about such behavior referenced as such. You act as if only researchers are privy to make socio-technological observations. That is disappointing.
I expect better, and more solid thinking, from people who are professionally engaged in research. This is quite normative. Some of the folks who one can expect reasonable positions from are in academia, though many are not. Calcanis in particular has said enough annoying things in the past that he's gotten my personal 'pass' - I discount things he says just because he says them. I do not do that lightly.
You say that: "Having one person with a loud-ish voice compare internet behavior to Aspergers syndrome is highly obnoxious. Having people who should know better repeat the statement is just unconscionable and bordering on 'vile'."
Interesting... Researchers been doing this since the the dawn of time, and too, have been labeled as "obnoxious", "unconscionable", and "borderline vile". Though such assertions have usually come from the ignorant and close-minded, more telling of yourself than of me, or Calcanis.
You're awfully quick to descend to assuming that it's the individuals on this list who're closed-minded and selling others short. It seems unlikely that this is going to be a productive community for you. Perhaps you should just write AoIR off completely.
No one has "flattened / construed" the issue down to trolling as being "Aspergers-driven". Such a lack of attention to detail is concerning from a researcher, especially when conveyed in such a condescending tone. Had you bothered to not only read, but attempt to understand the basic premise of Calcanis' assertion, you would have understood what he was saying - a tragic misstep in your response.
I don't want spend too much time on what Calcanis claims, because the vaguest outline of what has been mentioned so far is an affront to my understanding of what it means to be a human being, and how decent human beings should treat and interact with others. best, --e
participants (9)
-
Alexander Halavais -
Dave Karpf -
Elijah Wright -
laetitia le chatton -
live -
maggie laidlaw -
Michael Scarce -
Terri Senft -
Thomas Jones