RE: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
Hi Ellis,
Ah, that I understand! ...but don't believe. :)
The content of interactions has certainly changed in some regards. For example, the proportion of content which is reflexive (about the content and the interactions themselves) has increased. And reflexive content is distributed unevenly not only through time, but across different situations and relationships.
Before I answer the first question, could you please define "reflexive content?" I still believe that the content of our discussions maybe different but only to the extent that's allowed by the new medium (the technology part) and what we bring to the discussion from the outside world.
I'm curious what you mean by the Internet providing answers to questions. Whatever changes the Internet represents, presents, and effects may contribute to answer-finding (and question asking) in indirect and even abstract ways.
I think I hold a pessimistic view here, and I am really greatful for your help in my own understanding of our discussion here. In our discussion, hate has been put in the context of Islamic extremists, which to me is a socially generated construct outside of the cyberspace. Even though we have this magnificent capability to connect, we don't connect to seek answers like: why we hate, or where Islamic extremists come from. Instead we put up web sites along the lines of power struggles, that have nothing to do with technology. So while I do agree that changes because of the Internet "may" contribute to "answer finding" the truth is that they simply don't. Technology and connectivity do not bring us equity, social justice, fairness, or whatever else that we think we all deserve. I don't think that technology has made us into better human beings at all. Best ... Jarek
-eg
-----Original Message----- From: J. J. [mailto:japeks@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:41 PM To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org; ellis.godard@csun.edu Subject: RE: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
Hi Ellis,
Thanks to you and Peder for a good discussion. I think we are talking about the same thing here. I tried to point out the embedment of technology within the society. The way I see it, is that technology's development and use follow the socially generated inequalities. So while discussions thanks to the Internet do take place in cyberspace, these are still same discussions we've had for millennia: us vs. them, let's kill somebody because it will be good for us, our religion is the better religion etc . So while the medium has changed, the content of human interactions hasn't. Therefore, I wrote that the Internet will only provide answers to questions asked outside of it. Does it make sense?
Again, thanks for the time you took to respond to this. Jarek
From: "Ellis Godard" <egodard@csun.edu> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org, ellis.godard@csun.edu To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org>, <air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org> Subject: RE: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:42:31 -0800
Many disconnects in there, Peder. Being able to spread a message wider does not mean *actually* spreading it wider, and neither necessarily means social change of any interesting variety or degree. Further, even if the web allows hitherto unheard extremes to spread their messages wider to such an extent that social change is engendered, that could still be simply a replication of existing social divisions.
On the other hand, I don't understand Jarek's argument that "cyberspace will provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the world outside of it." I don't disagree; I'm simply not yet sure what it means. :)
-eg
-----Original Message----- From: air-l-aoir.org-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-aoir.org-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Peder Are Jensen Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:31 AM To: air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
Hello, Jarek.
Yes, hate is basically socially generated. However, it can also be strengthened or weakened in various ways. I am not sure whether I fully agree with you that "web sites only replicate the existing social divisions." I think they do more than that. I spend a lot of time researching websites related to Islam or anything Islamic. From all possible angles, both conservative ones, websites dealing with extremist militants calling for Jihad, reformist and secularist ones and even websites of people rejecting Islam. Now, if you take the extremes on both ends of this, the most violent Islamists and radical Islam-rejecters, these are groups that would have a hard time getting their message across in more traditional and conservative media. I do think the Internet itself is empowering such groups in a way that is significant, enabling them to spread their message to wider audiences. At the very least, the web is greatly facilitating social changes already underway. It may even be creating changes, even though I know many would reject such a view as technological determinism. This includes hate sites, such as those Islamic militant sites decsribed on the Internet Haganah.
Just my 2 cents.
Yous sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:21:00 -0800 From: "J. J." <japeks@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Message-ID: <BAY23-F37A0D77B14B2C3695B4C4CC9B90@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Peder,
I think that "hate" is socially generated, cyberspace or not. The web sites only replicate the existing social divisions. I've checked the links you provided, and they don't help me understand the phenomenon of the "Islamic extremists" much. I am not sure if that can be understood without active participation of the other side either and those web sites don't seem to be inviting any such discussion. My point then is that cyberspace will provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the world outside of it. What do you think?
Jarek
From: Peder Are Jensen <pajensen75@yahoo.no> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org To: air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:27:26 +0100 (CET)
From Peder Jensen, Master Student at the University of Oslo, Norway. Charles Ess mentioned searching for hate communities online. Have you tried looking at websites by Islamic extremists? You can track some of them through websites like these:
http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/
Yours sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
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J.J. asked:
The content of interactions has certainly changed in some regards. For example, the proportion of content which is reflexive (about the content and the interactions themselves) has increased. And reflexive content is distributed unevenly not only through time, but across different situations and relationships.
Before I answer the first question, could you please define "reflexive content?"
Content about itself. Ideas about ideas. Interactions about interactions.
I still believe that the content of our discussions maybe different but only to the extent that's allowed by the new medium (the technology part) and what we bring to the discussion from the outside world.
Ah, there's the rub: What does the new medium bring, and what does it attract from the "outside world"?
I'm curious what you mean by the Internet providing answers to questions. Whatever changes the Internet represents, presents, and effects may contribute to answer-finding (and question asking) in indirect and even abstract ways.
I think I hold a pessimistic view here, ... Even though we have this magnificent capability to connect, we don't connect to seek answers like: why we hate, or where Islamic extremists come from.
I'm not sure why cyberspace would change this. But the idea that it could, and your raising the question of why it doesn't, could produce (or even constitute) social change of some (minor) magnitude. ...
Technology and connectivity do not bring us equity, social justice, fairness, or whatever else that we think we all deserve.
Possibly not.
I don't think that technology has made us into better human beings at all.
I don't think I know what "better human beings" would mean. But that's a normative question, and I'm interested in empirical matters. -eg
participants (2)
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Ellis Godard -
J. J.