Aggression seems to be defined by other list members based on someone's expressions of views (not only on views). The norms are defined by the majority and/or the most vocal members. For research, it is important to take into account that 'lurkers' and 'trolls' are words with strong connotation. They may describe some behaviours, but what else is in it, needs to be unpacked and probably labeled differently. Otherwise, we may keep using the same word when talking about different things. I apologise if I repeated what someone already said. I haven't read the whole thread (one of the benign reasons for lurkers to remain in the shade). Mary-Helen sent her response while I was writing this. Verb or noun? Maybe being a 'troll' means that's who you are, 'trolling' is something you've done, maybe once. It's like saying to children that something was unacceptable behaviour, not that they are unacceptable people. Suzana At 01:21 PM 17/05/2007, you wrote:

Suzana,

Ah! You encounter the same paradox. Aggression as defined by who? Invariably you wrap back to the speaker/actor diad. The only resolution, for a scholar, is to reject the jargon and to operationally describe the behavior. Fact, premise, conclusion. Then you can test the fact/claim.

IMHO, the fear of being labeled is greater that the fear of disputation. A classic "avoidance/avoidance conflict" that resolves to "lurking or leaving" in listserv behavior.

This sounds like a hypothesis for a research project.

James

Charles, IMHO, this hypothetical person can no longer be considered a troll since a troll by definition operates outside the norms of the group. By your own statement, "he largely remains within the boundaries of proscribed behavior." Unless you mean, "once a troll always a troll", without the possibility of redemption. You weren't suggesting that were you? Secondly, spam has a legal definition and if the conference is a non-profit activity it is considered a "public service announcement", not advertising, and it is excepted from the law. This exposes a possible imprecision in the application of another web jargonistic term. Since spam is legally defined, a responsible person would report this person to authorities. Also if a mechanism for a person to unsubscribe is part of the mailing and he has complied to the requests then again, no foul. Assuming he is using an pseudonym, the use of a pseudonym is not unusual even in AIR-L. where many people are known only by their email address or alias. Most listservs do not require a real name for registration. I think I remember it to be true of AIR-L as well. ICBW So in answer to your question, the only name you can reasonably apply is "participant." in good standing. One could assume that he has learned to be a good nettizen. There remains the possibility that a few members of the list could flame him so as to provoke a defense that will then be considered poor netiquette and evidence of "Trolling." But of course if he is smart he will not be provoked. Wouldn't the flaming be a violation of group norms? Your question actually exposes the subjective nature of such labeling. Good job and cleverly framed. James _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

Yes, I think we should be very wary of getting involved with dr. reid cornwell. his empire is expanding of course. if you google him you will see that he has at least 3 different institutes/centers/ foundations all related to his corporate entity, he has several conferences, which he seems intent on leveraging academic expertise to promote. To me, it sounds very much like a profit from conferences system, leveraging academic expertise, which I find distasteful. I also find it distasteful that he has appropriated the emails from the list and is spamming members. It is spam in as much as it was unrequested and there is one profit making entity involved. If you received his personal invitations, i suggest you think twice, because it is likely that everyone on the list received very much the same invitation. I personally wouldn't want to have one of his conferences on my vita, i think it would have negative mojo to some people who have been bothered by him before. Jeremy Hunsinger Information Ethics Fellow, Center for Information Policy Research, School of Information Studies, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (www.cipr.uwm.edu) Words are things; and a small drop of ink, falling like dew upon a thought, produces that which makes thousands, perhaps millions, think. --Byron

Mary-Helen, You speak of a man who dealt with your request in polite and appropriate manner. I received an email that actually ask if I wanted to be removed from his (harvested) list. Hardly the behavior of a malevolent person. James Mary-Helen Ward <mhward@usyd.edu.au> wrote: After three unsolicited and unacknowledged approaches from Reid Cornwell I asked him not to write to me again. He replied politely and I haven't heard from him since. At least, not with that name. M-H On 17/05/2007, at 10:46 PM, Jeremy Hunsinger wrote:

Yes, I think we should be very wary of getting involved with dr. reid cornwell. his empire is expanding of course. if you google him you will see that he has at least 3 different institutes/centers/ foundations all related to his corporate entity, he has several conferences, which he seems intent on leveraging academic expertise to promote. To me, it sounds very much like a profit from conferences system, leveraging academic expertise, which I find distasteful. I also find it distasteful that he has appropriated the emails from the list and is spamming members. It is spam in as much as it was unrequested and there is one profit making entity involved. If you received his personal invitations, i suggest you think twice, because it is likely that everyone on the list received very much the same invitation. I personally wouldn't want to have one of his conferences on my vita, i think it would have negative mojo to some people who have been bothered by him before.

Jeremy Hunsinger Information Ethics Fellow, Center for Information Policy Research, School of Information Studies, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (www.cipr.uwm.edu)

Words are things; and a small drop of ink, falling like dew upon a thought, produces that which makes thousands, perhaps millions, think. --Byron

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Has anyone in this organization actually made the attempt to get to know Reid Cornwell. His telephone number is on his emails. If so, what did that produce. Is he a jerk devoid of valuable qualities? What? Is everyone willing to accept the assertions unquestioned? From a scholarly point of view, one would think this malevolent character would be the object of curiosity as the poster child for Internet deviancy.IMHO true scholarship demands that one interrogate the accusers and the accused and determine for oneself what is the truth. Is it possible that WRC has been labeled a troll and the accusers are reifiying the label so that they don't have to be accountable? I'd be willing to bet Reid Cornwell would be willing to talk to anyone that called (friend or foe). It seems he is too up front to do otherwise. E.G. Boring nailed this whole drama 79 years ago. James. Jeremy Hunsinger <jhuns@vt.edu> wrote: Yes, I think we should be very wary of getting involved with dr. reid cornwell. his empire is expanding of course. if you google him you will see that he has at least 3 different institutes/centers/ foundations all related to his corporate entity, he has several conferences, which he seems intent on leveraging academic expertise to promote. To me, it sounds very much like a profit from conferences system, leveraging academic expertise, which I find distasteful. I also find it distasteful that he has appropriated the emails from the list and is spamming members. It is spam in as much as it was unrequested and there is one profit making entity involved. If you received his personal invitations, i suggest you think twice, because it is likely that everyone on the list received very much the same invitation. I personally wouldn't want to have one of his conferences on my vita, i think it would have negative mojo to some people who have been bothered by him before. Jeremy Hunsinger Information Ethics Fellow, Center for Information Policy Research, School of Information Studies, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (www.cipr.uwm.edu) Words are things; and a small drop of ink, falling like dew upon a thought, produces that which makes thousands, perhaps millions, think. --Byron _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids.

All, In the absence of direct dictated and enforced rules on list behavior or some sort of filter, as in the CRTNET list for the National Communication Assoc., list norms are emergent and negotiated by participants. Research shows these emerge over time (taking longer than f2f) but are resilient in mixed f2f2/cmc groups. In my experience in activist and academic lists, troll behavior is defined on the fly and can only be mitigated by group consensus that the behavior is unwarranted or disruptive. As lists have become more popularized (less geeky) and/or larger and/or populated with participants who lack long term interaction experience in that particular forum, troll behavior becomes harder to communally police. List members complain to the admin instead of taking action themselves. The Reid episode was a perfect example of this and having an admin step in always invites charges of censorship. As another example, I had emailed someone off (an activist) list to tell them that calling another participant a "f*cking idiot" was not productive. He responded by stating he had known that person for years and he then not to take the comment personally. The context and community norms are everything. The old axiom of "not wrestling with pigs because you get dirty and it annoys the pig" fits the troll issue. In the past many communities have simply refused to respond to any posts or added the troll to their bozo filter (as I did with the Reid spam after my second unsub attempt). IMO, what a list needs to do these days (and we should do) once it gets to be large is to have a process observer. Concerns about behavior should not be voiced in private emails but publicly by the PO. The PO can also recommend a time-out (act like a 6 year old and get treated as one). Normally, this role is taken by a senior list member who commands everyone's respect. Again, the larger this list, the less effective this traditional control becomes. Just my thoughts, -TED Ted M. Coopman Department of Communication University of Washington On Thu, 17 May 2007, Jeremy Hunsinger wrote:

I think that you are now trolling. i did not present him as malevolent, i presented my interpretations of his situation. I personally think there is going to be a difference between his portrayal of his actions and his perceived actions. I am just skeptical of his position given prior actions. I am sure that everyone would agree that he is attempting to do something, and where we might disagree is how to interpret that.

again, phrases such as 'true scholarship' might be considered derogatory.

My sole point was to say to fellow members of the list that you should investigate the situation more fully before you commit to working with someone. If they do investigate this situation more fully, I expect they will come to worrysome conclusions. That is my opinion of people who I suspect have a well developed capacity for judgment. It is not scholarship, they can do that on their own. _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

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All, James Whyte wrote: "Coopman's comment on having to request revoval from the WRC's list several times exposes the lack forgiveness for an action that could be explained as something other than bad intent." This is the relevant section of my post: "The old axiom of "not wrestling with pigs because you get dirty and it annoys the pig" fits the troll issue. In the past many communities have simply refused to respond to any posts or added the troll to their bozo filter (as I did with the Reid spam after my second unsub attempt)." This was simply an example of what I did rather than getting animated about it. I tried to unsub twice and then simply added the address to my spam filter. Simple, done. I did not imply intent on the senders part, evil or otherwise. Forgive him for what? Being a jerk? Who cares? I have no relationship with him. Reid's intent was of no interest to me. I just did not want to be bothered. SPAM is unwanted and unsolicited mass email (he described it as a mass mailing). The legitimacy (or lack of) of his other endeavors is immaterial to me. I just have no interest in what he is into. However, IMO harvesting emails addresses from a list, esp. a list you have been removed from, for your own purposes is unseemly and verges on SPAMMER behavior. If one wishes to promote something to list members then one should seek permission to use the list or use it as a list member. He could have easily sent his conference announcement to the list admin or through one his friends on this list. -TED Ted M. Coopman Department of Communication University of Washington On Thu, 17 May 2007, James Whyte wrote:

Jeremy,

It's easy to find out things about Reid Cornwell.He is a public figure. A look at http://focus-on-education.org will tell you that he founded the organization over a decade ago and was awarded a 501(c)(3) designation long before any of the "empire" as you expressed has grown. His publications in the Wall Street Journal predate any of this drama. His associations with people and organizaions outside this list are easily verified and documented.

While his criticisms within the list are caustic they are certainly not toxic. He clearly is not a wilting lily. He is certainly not retiring.I want to know what invites the kind of vitriol that you and other have leveled against him.

Is it possible that because he challenges you and is irreverent to the doxa that is so entrenched that he offends you. (plural you)

I say again read Patricia's paper on flaming with a reflexive attitude.

Since I wrote the statement "true scholarship" I meant it in the context of the ideal of objectivity. If you took offense I sorry, but do not recant. The intention was not to offend but to challenge objectification of the charges against Reid Cornwell

As best as I can figure few people have attempted to know what he is about. Yet the judgement of "Troll" has been placed on the table and his self defence is considered further evidence of his guilt.

It is clear that you don't like him, but why. Your appeal to investigate from my point of view carries with it the admonition to all to investigate the speaker/accusers as well as the actor/accused. IMHO, scholarship requires this responsibility.

I have appealed to all, through citation, for logic and rationality. Reid Cornwell is not inscrutible or unknown. He is a visible as an Abrhams tank.

IMHO it is immoral to condemm a person without a fair examination.

Coopman's comment on having to request revoval from the WRC's list several times exposes the lack forgiveness for an action that could be explained as something other than bad intent.

What could be lost by trying to get to know this person? What could be gained? Why do you think he would be anything but defensive in this community when the list moderator has mounted an ad hominem like nothing I have ever seen and then to have others quoting it in an indexed list.

If you think about it WRC has actually been fairly restrained.

James

Jeremy Hunsinger <jhuns@vt.edu> wrote: I think that you are now trolling. i did not present him as malevolent, i presented my interpretations of his situation. I personally think there is going to be a difference between his portrayal of his actions and his perceived actions. I am just skeptical of his position given prior actions. I am sure that everyone would agree that he is attempting to do something, and where we might disagree is how to interpret that.

again, phrases such as 'true scholarship' might be considered derogatory.

My sole point was to say to fellow members of the list that you should investigate the situation more fully before you commit to working with someone. If they do investigate this situation more fully, I expect they will come to worrysome conclusions. That is my opinion of people who I suspect have a well developed capacity for judgment. It is not scholarship, they can do that on their own. _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

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On 17/05/07, Jeremy Hunsinger <jhuns@vt.edu> wrote:

Yes, I think we should be very wary of getting involved with dr. reid cornwell. his empire is expanding of course. i

<snip> Just a note to say that Reid Cornwell has recently 'infected' another list of which I have been a long-time member (concerning interaction design). He bizarrely attacked the list for discussing ...the very subject matter of the list. You couldn't make it up. Louise Louise Ferguson

omg, can we please move on and talk about something else?!!!!! This is ridiculous. -----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of James Whyte Sent: May 17, 2007 5:31 PM To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-l] Doctorow on Dealing With Trolls Louis, Come on now, I lurk on that list and there is more to the story (as there usually is). He had posted a call for participation in an education conference for interactive designers for the purpose of HCI in education and the thread went merrily along on "gas pump design." I love the characterizations of "infected". His attempt was to infect with social conciousness. It is bizarre, when you can get interactive designer in India for an inflated $7.00 per hour. James Louise Ferguson <louise.ferguson@gmail.com> wrote: On 17/05/07, Jeremy Hunsinger wrote:

Yes, I think we should be very wary of getting involved with dr. reid cornwell. his empire is expanding of course. i

Just a note to say that Reid Cornwell has recently 'infected' another list of which I have been a long-time member (concerning interaction design). He bizarrely attacked the list for discussing ...the very subject matter of the list. You couldn't make it up. Louise Louise Ferguson _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/

I am going to filter out this discussion, now that Mark mentions it. I've heard enough... On May 17, 2007, at 3:48 PM, Mark D. Johns wrote:

T. Kennedy wrote:

...

omg, can we please move on and talk about something else?!!!!! This is ridiculous.

Agreed. If the goal of the troll is control, this list has most certainly been hijacked.

I simply have set my email program's filters to shunt posts from certain email addresses straight to trash. It makes life on the list abundantly more pleasant, except when I must manually delete all of the notes in which my friends rise to take the bait. -- Mark D. Johns, Ph.D. Associate Professor and Head of the Department of Communication Studies Luther College, Decorah, Iowa USA http://academic.luther.edu/~johnsmar/ ----------------------------------------------- "Get the facts first. You can distort them later." ---Mark Twain _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

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Bonnie A. Nardi Donald Bren School of Information and Computer Sciences University of California, Irvine Irvine, CA 92697-3440 (949) 824-6534 www.artifex.org/~bonnie/

Precisely! Nicely said. Suzana Sukovic <suzana.sukovic@uts.edu.au> wrote: It's like saying to children that something was unacceptable behaviour, not that they are unacceptable people. Suzana --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.