Hello all, On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual. Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable! For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” — https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w... respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi all, Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the new Twitter < https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
, suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even among progressives. best regards, steph On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon. https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i... Fred -- Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer FireSabre Consulting LLC --- On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote:
On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: > I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform > run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial > "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever > singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time > a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people > just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were > integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were > it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more people than they should've, and then often has to hire some or even many back at a significant salary increase. On top of that, some of those with good employment prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices knowledge is lost forever. Fred --- On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: > It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from > Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. > I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform > run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial > "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever > singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time > a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people > just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were > integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it > me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also > reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he > was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him > over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other > people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would > be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about > how the company handled other perma-bans in recent > years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels > rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the > many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... > and it's only been a week! > Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a > perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. > -- rick > [1] either technical or managerial
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Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users. Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet. Bill William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s) Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670 Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” — https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi all, Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the new Twitter < https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
, suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even among progressives. best regards, steph On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon. https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i... Fred -- Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer FireSabre Consulting LLC --- On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: > On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) > Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at > Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more > people than they should've, and then often has to hire > some or even many back at a significant salary increase. > On top of that, some of those with good employment > prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So > their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices > knowledge is lost forever. > Fred > --- > On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >> and it's only been a week! >> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >> -- rick >> [1] either technical or managerial _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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I agree that being active on a bunch of platforms is great, sure -- especially if you want to reach as many folks as possible. But the flipside is the recurring opportunity/sunken costs of time and labor it usually takes to setup, monitor, manage presences and cross-post things ten ways to next Wednesday plus then monitor/manage that setup AND interact meaningfully with people across all platforms. Ergo I suspect most folks[1] will pick 1-2 platforms (eg, Twitter+Insta, Mastodon+LinkedIn, just Twitter or Mastodon, etc) and stick with that setup to provide a "good enough" reach for them and their message[2], especially if their choice of platform(s) aligns, hopefully comfortably, with their interests and moreso, their expectations on content moderation and community standards. --- rick From what I've seen, for the most part, the Mastodon community of federated servers and admins have done a decent job handling the influx. Hopefully it can continue to scale effectively if/as needed. [1] other than social media researchers, where this is their job and an expected occupational hazard. :) [2] At least until they get an entourage of PR staff to help them. On 10 Nov 2022, at 7:25, William Dutton via Air-L wrote:
Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” — https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi all, Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the new Twitter < https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe... > , suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even among progressives. best regards, steph On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: > Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon. https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i... > Fred > -- > Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer > FireSabre Consulting LLC > --- > On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: >> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >>> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) >> Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at >> Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more >> people than they should've, and then often has to hire >> some or even many back at a significant salary increase. >> On top of that, some of those with good employment >> prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So >> their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices >> knowledge is lost forever. >> Fred >> --- >> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >>> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >>> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >>> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >>> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >>> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >>> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >>> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >>> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >>> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >>> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >>> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >>> and it's only been a week! >>> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >>> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >>> -- rick >>> [1] either technical or managerial > _______________________________________________ > The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org > Join the Association of Internet Researchers: > http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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In re the number of people on Twitter: A number of academics and public figures already locked their accounts or limited them to their "Twitter circle," which means they will be only speaking to their current audiences, not the 330 million of Twitter users. I also remember reading a number of studies, some by people on this list, arguing that social media algorithms put users into silos, sending them mostly messages they would already be interested in. These factors seem to be lost in comparisons favoring "open" Twitter over "siloed" Mastodon. One thing that does not seem to be possible on Mastodon is activism that aims to jolt people out of their comfort zone--posting graphic pictures of violence to get support for causes, for example. That will just get you blocked. But building coalitions through deliberation works much better on Mastodon. Mastodon also makes it impossible to attack a poster en masse for an unpopular opinion, the way the right organized mob attacks of leftists on Twitter. Elena On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 7:42 AM William Dutton via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” — https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi all, Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the new Twitter <
https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
> , suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even among progressives. best regards, steph On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: > Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon.
https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i...
> Fred > -- > Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer > FireSabre Consulting LLC > --- > On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: >> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >>> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) >> Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at >> Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more >> people than they should've, and then often has to hire >> some or even many back at a significant salary increase. >> On top of that, some of those with good employment >> prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So >> their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices >> knowledge is lost forever. >> Fred >> --- >> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >>> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >>> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >>> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >>> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >>> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >>> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >>> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >>> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >>> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >>> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >>> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >>> and it's only been a week! >>> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >>> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >>> -- rick >>> [1] either technical or managerial > _______________________________________________ > The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org > Join the Association of Internet Researchers: > http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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Hi Elena, Sure, any person can silo themselves as they wish - but they are the algorithm. Most people interested in a topic, such as politics, will go to four or more sources (one being online) and online they will go to four or more sources. This tendency prevents most people interested in a particular topic like politics from being trapped in a filter bubble or echo chamber, unless they manufacture it for themselves. See: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2960697 AOIR should be the last set of academics to be technologically deterministic - we need to study users. But of course I sympathise with you looking for a place in your comfort zone. You know this, as you and others thinking about Mastodon are communicating on Twitter, listservs, etc. Multiple sources help IMHO. Regards, Bill William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s) Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670 Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 13:01, Elena Razlogova <elena.razlogova@gmail.com> wrote:
In re the number of people on Twitter: A number of academics and public figures already locked their accounts or limited them to their "Twitter circle," which means they will be only speaking to their current audiences, not the 330 million of Twitter users. I also remember reading a number of studies, some by people on this list, arguing that social media algorithms put users into silos, sending them mostly messages they would already be interested in. These factors seem to be lost in comparisons favoring "open" Twitter over "siloed" Mastodon.
One thing that does not seem to be possible on Mastodon is activism that aims to jolt people out of their comfort zone--posting graphic pictures of violence to get support for causes, for example. That will just get you blocked. But building coalitions through deliberation works much better on Mastodon. Mastodon also makes it impossible to attack a poster en masse for an unpopular opinion, the way the right organized mob attacks of leftists on Twitter.
Elena
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 7:42 AM William Dutton via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” — https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi all, Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the new Twitter < https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe... > , suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even among progressives. best regards, steph On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: > Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon. https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i... > Fred > -- > Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer > FireSabre Consulting LLC > --- > On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: >> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >>> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) >> Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at >> Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more >> people than they should've, and then often has to hire >> some or even many back at a significant salary increase. >> On top of that, some of those with good employment >> prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So >> their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices >> knowledge is lost forever. >> Fred >> --- >> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >>> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >>> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >>> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >>> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >>> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >>> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >>> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >>> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >>> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >>> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >>> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >>> and it's only been a week! >>> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >>> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >>> -- rick >>> [1] either technical or managerial > _______________________________________________ > The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org > Join the Association of Internet Researchers: > http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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Dear William (and everyone), Thanks for the article, I'll check it out. I am not advocating that AOIR abandon Twitter at the moment, for reasons already mentioned by others. But the passion of Twitter's defenders surprises me. Why spend so much time and energy on shaming people for opting for Mastodon? I am speaking of Twitter posts on "white flight" and also some posts on this list. The level of vehemence on Twitter especially is astounding. Twitter and Mastodon are not equivalent social media options. Twitter is an ad-supported for-profit AI-driven centralized platform. Mastodon, for all its problems, is a user-supported non-profit federated network of servers run by individuals and collectives. Once one is aware of alternatives, not wanting to give your private data away to a corporation is a perfectly valid choice. Technological determinism and "comfort" level (whatever that is) have nothing to do with it. Twitter is, at best, a makeshift solution for reaching "the public" (if a commercial platform's user base can be called that). It seems one's energies are better spent on making Mastodon more welcoming to BIPOC communities than discouraging people from leaving Twitter. Elena On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 8:38 AM William Dutton <william.dutton@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Elena,
Sure, any person can silo themselves as they wish - but they are the algorithm. Most people interested in a topic, such as politics, will go to four or more sources (one being online) and online they will go to four or more sources. This tendency prevents most people interested in a particular topic like politics from being trapped in a filter bubble or echo chamber, unless they manufacture it for themselves. See: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2960697
AOIR should be the last set of academics to be technologically deterministic - we need to study users. But of course I sympathise with you looking for a place in your comfort zone. You know this, as you and others thinking about Mastodon are communicating on Twitter, listservs, etc. Multiple sources help IMHO.
Regards,
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 13:01, Elena Razlogova <elena.razlogova@gmail.com> wrote:
In re the number of people on Twitter: A number of academics and public figures already locked their accounts or limited them to their "Twitter circle," which means they will be only speaking to their current audiences, not the 330 million of Twitter users. I also remember reading a number of studies, some by people on this list, arguing that social media algorithms put users into silos, sending them mostly messages they would already be interested in. These factors seem to be lost in comparisons favoring "open" Twitter over "siloed" Mastodon.
One thing that does not seem to be possible on Mastodon is activism that aims to jolt people out of their comfort zone--posting graphic pictures of violence to get support for causes, for example. That will just get you blocked. But building coalitions through deliberation works much better on Mastodon. Mastodon also makes it impossible to attack a poster en masse for an unpopular opinion, the way the right organized mob attacks of leftists on Twitter.
Elena
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 7:42 AM William Dutton via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” — https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: > Hi all, > Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate > the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your > sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, > communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about > outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a > sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for > h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! > I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at > the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. > Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who > argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the > new Twitter > <
https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
>> , > suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even > among progressives. > best regards, > steph > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < > air-l@listserv.aoir.org> > wrote: >> Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon.
https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i...
>> Fred >> -- >> Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer >> FireSabre Consulting LLC >> --- >> On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: >>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >>>> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) >>> Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at >>> Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more >>> people than they should've, and then often has to hire >>> some or even many back at a significant salary increase. >>> On top of that, some of those with good employment >>> prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So >>> their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices >>> knowledge is lost forever. >>> Fred >>> --- >>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >>>> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >>>> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >>>> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >>>> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >>>> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >>>> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >>>> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >>>> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >>>> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >>>> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >>>> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >>>> and it's only been a week! >>>> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >>>> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >>>> -- rick >>>> [1] either technical or managerial >> _______________________________________________ >> The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list >> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org >> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: >> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org >> Join the Association of Internet Researchers: >> http://www.aoir.org/ > _______________________________________________ > The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org > Join the Association of Internet Researchers: > http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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I am slowly finding new and interesting people on Mastodon, mostly academics. This ad-free platform has no hard-wired referral system. Some of the worst abuses of Twitter in elections over the last 5-6 years applied "Who to follow" algorithmic targeting to fuel division, hate, and advertising sales on every insurrectionist timeline. When you are not driven daily to find fellow extremists, trending topics, or to buy crypto currency, it feels safer. Bill, I hear you about the smaller size of the user population, but what did over-sized accounts on bloated commercial misinformation-laden weaponized platforms lead to? META + Musky Twitter. People used to say some companies are "too big to fail" however in some cases maybe they are now too big to succeed? https://mastodon.ie/web/@stu On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 8:42 AM Elena Razlogova via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
In re the number of people on Twitter: A number of academics and public figures already locked their accounts or limited them to their "Twitter circle," which means they will be only speaking to their current audiences, not the 330 million of Twitter users. I also remember reading a number of studies, some by people on this list, arguing that social media algorithms put users into silos, sending them mostly messages they would already be interested in. These factors seem to be lost in comparisons favoring "open" Twitter over "siloed" Mastodon.
One thing that does not seem to be possible on Mastodon is activism that aims to jolt people out of their comfort zone--posting graphic pictures of violence to get support for causes, for example. That will just get you blocked. But building coalitions through deliberation works much better on Mastodon. Mastodon also makes it impossible to attack a poster en masse for an unpopular opinion, the way the right organized mob attacks of leftists on Twitter.
Elena
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 7:42 AM William Dutton via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” —
https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <
air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: > Hi all, > Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate > the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your > sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, > communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about > outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a > sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for > h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! > I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at > the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. > Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who > argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the > new Twitter > <
https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
>> , > suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even > among progressives. > best regards, > steph > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < > air-l@listserv.aoir.org> > wrote: >> Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon.
https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i...
>> Fred >> -- >> Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer >> FireSabre Consulting LLC >> --- >> On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: >>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >>>> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) >>> Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at >>> Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more >>> people than they should've, and then often has to hire >>> some or even many back at a significant salary increase. >>> On top of that, some of those with good employment >>> prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So >>> their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices >>> knowledge is lost forever. >>> Fred >>> --- >>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >>>> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >>>> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >>>> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >>>> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >>>> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >>>> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >>>> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >>>> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >>>> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >>>> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >>>> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >>>> and it's only been a week! >>>> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >>>> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >>>> -- rick >>>> [1] either technical or managerial >> _______________________________________________ >> The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list >> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org >> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: >> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org >> Join the Association of Internet Researchers: >> http://www.aoir.org/ > _______________________________________________ > The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org > Join the Association of Internet Researchers: > http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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-- Dr. Stuart W. Shulman Founder and CEO, Texifter Editor Emeritus, *Journal of Information Technology & Politics*
I am loving this thread and wonder if it will turn up in a dissertation somewhere LOL. But more seriously I want to throw an existential log onto the fire here. Or maybe a little gasoline ... Twitter (and other social media platforms) mine their users as the product. So we know we are being exploited -- it's the whole business model. If we chose to use a commercial platform, we are "willing slaves." A lot of people have written about this eloquently and well (including many people on this thread). So it's like smoking I guess -- if I choose to smoke, I accept that there is a 50% chance I will die of a tobacco-related disease. I make this choice openly. I think if I choose to use Twitter (and I still do, albeit I'm like one of those smokers who only smokes when drinking ... and keeps trying to vie up) then I accept I have chosen to do something that is toxic for society. Wow, pretty dark and I'd love to be talked out of this attitude. I know that social media, unlike smoking, does bring good to society in the form of lifting up voices in #BlackLivesMatter and #MeToo. But I grow more and more uncomfortable with being a part of the problem by being a 'product' for Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 9:37 AM Shulman, Stu via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
I am slowly finding new and interesting people on Mastodon, mostly academics. This ad-free platform has no hard-wired referral system. Some of the worst abuses of Twitter in elections over the last 5-6 years applied "Who to follow" algorithmic targeting to fuel division, hate, and advertising sales on every insurrectionist timeline. When you are not driven daily to find fellow extremists, trending topics, or to buy crypto currency, it feels safer. Bill, I hear you about the smaller size of the user population, but what did over-sized accounts on bloated commercial misinformation-laden weaponized platforms lead to? META + Musky Twitter. People used to say some companies are "too big to fail" however in some cases maybe they are now too big to succeed? https://mastodon.ie/web/@stu
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 8:42 AM Elena Razlogova via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
In re the number of people on Twitter: A number of academics and public figures already locked their accounts or limited them to their "Twitter circle," which means they will be only speaking to their current audiences, not the 330 million of Twitter users. I also remember reading a number of studies, some by people on this list, arguing that social media algorithms put users into silos, sending them mostly messages they would already be interested in. These factors seem to be lost in comparisons favoring "open" Twitter over "siloed" Mastodon.
One thing that does not seem to be possible on Mastodon is activism that aims to jolt people out of their comfort zone--posting graphic pictures of violence to get support for causes, for example. That will just get you blocked. But building coalitions through deliberation works much better on Mastodon. Mastodon also makes it impossible to attack a poster en masse for an unpopular opinion, the way the right organized mob attacks of leftists on Twitter.
Elena
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 7:42 AM William Dutton via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” —
https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <
air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
> This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a > colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: > https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ > Sarah > Sarah Oates > Pronoun: she/her > Professor and Senior Scholar > Philip Merrill College of Journalism > Distinguished Scholar-Teacher > University of Maryland > College Park, MD 20742 > Email: soates@umd.edu > Phone: 301 455 2332 > www.media-politics.com > Twitter: @media_politics > *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund > <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < > air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: >> Hi all, >> Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I > appreciate >> the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring > your >> sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, >> communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about >> outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a >> sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for >> h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! >> I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at >> the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. >> Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who >> argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' > the >> new Twitter >> < >
https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
>>> , >> suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- > even >> among progressives. >> best regards, >> steph >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < >> air-l@listserv.aoir.org> >> wrote: >>> Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon. >
https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i...
>>> Fred >>> -- >>> Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer >>> FireSabre Consulting LLC >>> --- >>> On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: >>>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >>>>> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) >>>> Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at >>>> Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more >>>> people than they should've, and then often has to hire >>>> some or even many back at a significant salary increase. >>>> On top of that, some of those with good employment >>>> prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So >>>> their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices >>>> knowledge is lost forever. >>>> Fred >>>> --- >>>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>>> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >>>>> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >>>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >>>>> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >>>>> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >>>>> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >>>>> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >>>>> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >>>>> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >>>>> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >>>>> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >>>>> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >>>>> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >>>>> and it's only been a week! >>>>> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >>>>> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >>>>> -- rick >>>>> [1] either technical or managerial >>> _______________________________________________ >>> The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list >>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org >>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: >>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org >>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers: >>> http://www.aoir.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list >> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org >> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: >> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org >> Join the Association of Internet Researchers: >> http://www.aoir.org/ > _______________________________________________ > The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org > Join the Association of Internet Researchers: > http://www.aoir.org/
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-- Dr. Stuart W. Shulman Founder and CEO, Texifter Editor Emeritus, *Journal of Information Technology & Politics* _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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Hi Sarah, I’ll sign off and try to get some work done, but I wonder why so many write about the weaknesses of social media for democratic processes, and no one seems to be writing about how terrible they can be for any serious academic discussion like we are trying to have? This discussion might be good for sort of brainstorming, but heavens, it seems so inadequate in addressing any single issue raised by the participants. I am not arguing for a ban on scholarly debate, but this seems to incentivise conversational points and assertions that can be quickly made and left because we all need to get to work. You’ve got to love it, Bill William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s) Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670 Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 14:57, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
I am loving this thread and wonder if it will turn up in a dissertation somewhere LOL. But more seriously I want to throw an existential log onto the fire here. Or maybe a little gasoline ...
Twitter (and other social media platforms) mine their users as the product. So we know we are being exploited -- it's the whole business model. If we chose to use a commercial platform, we are "willing slaves." A lot of people have written about this eloquently and well (including many people on this thread).
So it's like smoking I guess -- if I choose to smoke, I accept that there is a 50% chance I will die of a tobacco-related disease. I make this choice openly. I think if I choose to use Twitter (and I still do, albeit I'm like one of those smokers who only smokes when drinking ... and keeps trying to vie up) then I accept I have chosen to do something that is toxic for society.
Wow, pretty dark and I'd love to be talked out of this attitude. I know that social media, unlike smoking, does bring good to society in the form of lifting up voices in #BlackLivesMatter and #MeToo. But I grow more and more uncomfortable with being a part of the problem by being a 'product' for Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, etc.
Sarah
Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her
Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics
*Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. *
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 9:37 AM Shulman, Stu via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
I am slowly finding new and interesting people on Mastodon, mostly academics. This ad-free platform has no hard-wired referral system. Some of the worst abuses of Twitter in elections over the last 5-6 years applied "Who to follow" algorithmic targeting to fuel division, hate, and advertising sales on every insurrectionist timeline. When you are not driven daily to find fellow extremists, trending topics, or to buy crypto currency, it feels safer. Bill, I hear you about the smaller size of the user population, but what did over-sized accounts on bloated commercial misinformation-laden weaponized platforms lead to? META + Musky Twitter. People used to say some companies are "too big to fail" however in some cases maybe they are now too big to succeed? https://mastodon.ie/web/@stu
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 8:42 AM Elena Razlogova via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
In re the number of people on Twitter: A number of academics and public figures already locked their accounts or limited them to their "Twitter circle," which means they will be only speaking to their current audiences, not the 330 million of Twitter users. I also remember reading a number of studies, some by people on this list, arguing that social media algorithms put users into silos, sending them mostly messages they would already be interested in. These factors seem to be lost in comparisons favoring "open" Twitter over "siloed" Mastodon.
One thing that does not seem to be possible on Mastodon is activism that aims to jolt people out of their comfort zone--posting graphic pictures of violence to get support for causes, for example. That will just get you blocked. But building coalitions through deliberation works much better on Mastodon. Mastodon also makes it impossible to attack a poster en masse for an unpopular opinion, the way the right organized mob attacks of leftists on Twitter.
Elena
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 7:42 AM William Dutton via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” —
https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <
air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote: > I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue > of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two > such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( > https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem > to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high > like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? > Many thanks, > Emma > > On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < > air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: > >> This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a >> colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: >> https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ >> Sarah >> Sarah Oates >> Pronoun: she/her >> Professor and Senior Scholar >> Philip Merrill College of Journalism >> Distinguished Scholar-Teacher >> University of Maryland >> College Park, MD 20742 >> Email: soates@umd.edu >> Phone: 301 455 2332 >> www.media-politics.com >> Twitter: @media_politics >> *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund >> <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < >> air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I >> appreciate >>> the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring >> your >>> sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, >>> communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about >>> outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a >>> sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for >>> h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! >>> I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at >>> the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. >>> Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who >>> argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' >> the >>> new Twitter >>> < >>
https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
>>>> , >>> suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- >> even >>> among progressives. >>> best regards, >>> steph >>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < >>> air-l@listserv.aoir.org> >>> wrote: >>>> Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon. >>
https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i...
>>>> Fred >>>> -- >>>> Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer >>>> FireSabre Consulting LLC >>>> --- >>>> On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: >>>>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >>>>>> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) >>>>> Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at >>>>> Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more >>>>> people than they should've, and then often has to hire >>>>> some or even many back at a significant salary increase. >>>>> On top of that, some of those with good employment >>>>> prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So >>>>> their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices >>>>> knowledge is lost forever. >>>>> Fred >>>>> --- >>>>> On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >>>>>> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >>>>>> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >>>>>> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >>>>>> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >>>>>> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >>>>>> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >>>>>> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >>>>>> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >>>>>> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >>>>>> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >>>>>> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >>>>>> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >>>>>> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >>>>>> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >>>>>> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >>>>>> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >>>>>> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >>>>>> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >>>>>> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >>>>>> and it's only been a week! >>>>>> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >>>>>> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >>>>>> -- rick >>>>>> [1] either technical or managerial >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list >>>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org >>>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: >>>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org >>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers: >>>> http://www.aoir.org/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list >>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org >>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: >>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org >>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers: >>> http://www.aoir.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list >> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org >> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: >> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org >> Join the Association of Internet Researchers: >> http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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I agree. Numbers matter when one's looking for collaboration or feedback on narrowly focused subjects. Fred --- On 11/10/2022 6:25 AM, William Dutton via Air-L wrote:
Great to see academics exploring Mastodon, but just to remind you of the blindingly obvious: it has about a million users, which is a surprisingly large number given the challenges in using it, but Twitter has about 330 million. Obama alone has 130 million followers on Twitter. And Twitter knows it has to grow its base of users.
Just one pragmatic point in favour of being active on a number of social media sites albeit this choice seems quite personal for many. It's a (relatively) free internet.
Bill
William H. Dutton 55 Victoria Road Oxford OX2 7QF United Kingdom
william.dutton@gmail.com Twitter @BiIIDutton (II=two capital ii’s)
Phone: +44 (0)1865 423836 Mobile: +44 (0)7757 741670
Blog: https://billdutton.me
Antiracism is definitely a concern of mine. I have not invested much time in Twitter, so I will set the white flight discussion aside here. But I am keenly attending to antiracism on the fediverse. And frankly, the track record of antiracism on the fediverse is wanting. In the history of the fediverse, there have been notable Black-run instances that have been harassed off the network. I'm sure many AOIR folks have read Dunbar-Hester's work on diversity advocacy in free and open source software (FOSS), particularly how FOSS projects often self-select a bunch of people who (frankly) look like me. Similar dynamics are playing out on the fediverse. All that said, as I have also noted elsewhere, the fediverse has been largely successful in marginalizing white supremacist instances. Racist conspiracy theories gain far less traction there then on the corporate systems. And there are key fediverse members, including BIPOC members, with long memories and deep skills who are building antiracist instances as I write. In fact, I'd recommend anyone with a spare few dollars a month to support Are0h's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Are0h. (I can also point folks to a bunch of BIPOC, women, and trans developers and artists who you could support financially -- I'm centering Are0h here because he's specifically considering running an instance and the fedi needs what he would bring). Radical social justice in this space is a long way off. I'm personally more optimistic for antiracism on the fediverse than I am on Twitter, but that's been a longstanding hope of mine (and, very likely, such hope has affected my own analysis of the fediverse). Time will tell. Moreover, all of these lessons need to be part of an AOIR instance if we choose to run one. One lesson is a good Code of Conduct. Another is to ensure we have moderators from around the world who won't put up with white supremacy in even its most innocuous-seeming forms. - Rob On 11/10/22 06:42, Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Kent via Air-L wrote:
Hello all,
On the issue of trust, Cory Doctorow just posted a long Twitter thread/blog post about Certificates of Authenticity. It reads like a Nacirema ritual.
Speaking of trust, is antiracism not an open topic of conversation on this list serve? I received a couple of private responses to a link about the Twitter migration to mastodon being perhaps an indicator of white fragility. I don’t know the norms for when one goes private versus public but the public silence in light of a couple of private responses was noticeable!
For any of you interested here’s another tweet thread with links to a couple of perspectives from “beyond white, left-leaning accounts” — https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713?s=46&t=JG_6hvzhr-w...
respectfully, steph
On Nov 10, 2022, at 5:58 AM, Robert W Gehl via Air-L <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Hi, Emma --
One of the major critiques of the development of ActivityPub (the protocol underlying Mastodon, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc) is that the developers did not pay enough attention to security and privacy questions. Those concerns were bracketed off. For example, in terms of connections between servers, the developers assumed that other projects, like SSL, would solve any security issues. Encryption in general was bracketed off as out of scope for the ActivityPub project. (To be fair, they had a lot on their plates).
So, as a result, there are some definite privacy issues. DMs between two members are not end-to-end encrypted. An instance admin has a great deal of insight into the network, from member profiles to who is talking to whom.
There are people working on solutions to these problems. Indeed, one of the key developers, Christine Lemmer-Webber, recognized the problem of encrypting DMs back in 2017: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225 and has proposed some solutions in the time since.
But currently, DMs are not encrypted.
The key issue, as always, is trust. Admins have to foster trust among their members by being good actors. But we also know from hard experience that admins can break trust. So, Emma, your questions are BIG ones and need to be pressed.
Note that much of what I am saying is true of the corporate model, however. Twitter doesn't encrypt DMs. Yes, FB might have end-to-end encryption -- but of course, you have to trust that they haven't been compelled by a powerful state to have a backdoor. (And this is a company that holds a patent on an automated system to turn user data over to law enforcement).
- Rob
On 11/9/22 21:13, Dr. Emma Briant via Air-L wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m a little worried about the privacy and security issue of using these services. I did see Wolfie Christl (who I trust) share two such sites and say he trusts the people behind them ( https://mastodon.social/@wchr/109299350293033545), but he also doesn’t seem to have used them himself as his Mastodon follower count doesn’t seem high like his Twitter. May I ask the community here whether anyone has concerns? Many thanks, Emma
On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 16:07, Sarah Ann Oates via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
This app to help migrate from Twitter to Mastodon was recommended by a colleague today; I have yet to try it but looks promising: https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/ Sarah Sarah Oates Pronoun: she/her Professor and Senior Scholar Philip Merrill College of Journalism Distinguished Scholar-Teacher University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: soates@umd.edu Phone: 301 455 2332 www.media-politics.com Twitter: @media_politics *Support the UMD Student Crisis Fund <https://giving.umd.edu/giving/showPage.php?name=crisis-funding> today. * On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 10:22 AM Steph Kent via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
Hi all, Following the Twitter|Mastodon threads with critical interest. I appreciate the invitation from Michael Ruigrok to members of this group to bring your sophisticated knowledge and experience to the improvement of federated, communal social networks. I'm always interested in access, thinking about outlier groups such as the Deaf, for whom text is frequently not a sufficient accommodation (despite the convenience of this belief for h/Hearing people). *That said, Deaf academics on Twitter are formidable! I'm glad of the resources from Meryl, Joly and Fred Fuchs too, as I'm at the edge of my learning curve learning how to navigate Mastodon. Wanted to share this political, antiracist perspective from Tim Wise, who argues that it's mainly white liberals who are concerned with 'fleeing' the new Twitter < https://timjwise.medium.com/fleeing-twitter-the-twexodus-is-about-white-libe...
, suggesting this is evidence of the pervasiveness of white fragility -- even among progressives. best regards, steph On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:30 AM Fred Fuchs via Air-L < air-l@listserv.aoir.org> wrote: Here's a TechRadar article on Mastodon. https://www.techradar.com/news/mastodon-is-a-great-twitter-alternative-but-i... Fred -- Fred Fuchs - Founder, CEO, & Producer FireSabre Consulting LLC --- On 11/7/2022 8:26 AM, Fred Fuchs wrote: > On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were >> it me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) > Sadly this is not uncommon during "regime changes" at > Internet tech companies. The new leadership fires far more > people than they should've, and then often has to hire > some or even many back at a significant salary increase. > On top of that, some of those with good employment > prospects may decide to seek better opportunities. So > their possibly irreplaceable tech and business practices > knowledge is lost forever. > Fred > --- > On 11/7/2022 6:51 AM, Richard Forno via Air-L wrote: >> It's not Musk's views per se that's driven me from >> Twitter, but that's a major reason, sure. >> I have a hard time *relying* on a communications platform >> run by a company now fully engaged in the proverbial >> "move fast, break things" mentality based on whatever >> singular whims or rage cycle its owner is in at the time >> a decision is made. To wit: They are now asking people >> just fired to come back, b/c nobody knew they were >> integral to the features Musk wanted to develop. (Were it >> me, I'd say sure, but double my salary.) He's also >> reversed other polices and views that he preached -- he >> was against permabans until Kathy Gifford parodied him >> over the weekend, so she's banned. He's also said other >> people not 'clearly identifying' as parody accounts would >> be perma-banned. That's a far cry from his views about >> how the company handled other perma-bans in recent >> years. The entire company -- and platform -- now feels >> rather unstable in many ways, and I feel sorry for the >> many serfs still there who will endure such chaos .... >> and it's only been a week! >> Heck, if I wanted to interact on a platform conducting a >> perpetual beta test[1], I'd use something from Google. >> -- rick >> [1] either technical or managerial _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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participants (8)
-
Elena Razlogova -
Fred Fuchs -
Richard Forno -
Robert W Gehl -
Sarah Ann Oates -
Shulman, Stu -
Stephanie Jo “Learning Resiliency” Ken t -
William Dutton