in defense of wiki vandalism....
It strikes me as almost appropriate that students who are required to edit a Wikipedia entry as part of a class, ended up vandalizing pages. I think you could argue that it is a valid response to being forced into public participation, particularly in the context of a self-organising community where all the other participants are self selected. If you'd not edited Wikipedia before, wouldn't boundaries be the first thing you'd want to test? What would Cartman do? I assure you he's not going to try the sandbox first. I think a lot of students would also 'get' that in addition to being a knowledge resource, wikipedia is also a kind of game, something former Wikipedia editor Brion Vibber pointed out in Nicholson Baker's NY Review of Books article, The Charms of Wikipedia. While there are clearly good pedagogical uses of Wikipedia, required editing makes me uneasy. It's not so great for students to have to learn in public and not so great for the people participating to have a group of students descend upon them either. --Margie Borschke
I think you raise a good point, Margie, about vandalism -- why not test boundaries? It just hadn't occurred to me that they would, given the very public nature of Wikipedia. But, alas, what would Cartman do? I need to keep that in mind . . . . Just to be clear, though, I didn't require my students to actually edit Wikipedia, because I agree with you. The last thing I want to do is subject the Wikipedia editors to my students who have neither the knowledge base, skills, or interest to edit particular pages. Now, I grant there are exceptions (some of my students have remarkable popular culture knowledge and good writing skills), but for the most part, they anyway aren't all that inclined to contribute to the collective wisdom exhibited in Wikipedia. I should note that my students are creating a wiki on "Web 2.0" for the end of class, but on PB Wiki, and mostly as an exercise to expose them to online, collaborative writing. ~Jenny Assistant Professor Department of Communication, SS 340 University at Albany, SUNY Albany, NY 12222 518-442-4873 jstromer@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~jstromer
-----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Margie Borschke Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:10 PM To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-L] in defense of wiki vandalism....
It strikes me as almost appropriate that students who are required to edit a Wikipedia entry as part of a class, ended up vandalizing pages. I think you could argue that it is a valid response to being forced into public participation, particularly in the context of a self-organising community where all the other participants are self selected. If you'd not edited Wikipedia before, wouldn't boundaries be the first thing you'd want to test? What would Cartman do? I assure you he's not going to try the sandbox first.
I think a lot of students would also 'get' that in addition to being a knowledge resource, wikipedia is also a kind of game, something former Wikipedia editor Brion Vibber pointed out in Nicholson Baker's NY Review of Books article, The Charms of Wikipedia.
While there are clearly good pedagogical uses of Wikipedia, required editing makes me uneasy. It's not so great for students to have to learn in public and not so great for the people participating to have a group of students descend upon them either.
--Margie Borschke
I know I'm late to this great thread, but here's a thought that occurred to me while I was planning my classes using a wiki and thinking about how much collaboration I could ask of the students: In what kind of environment are the students learning collaborative online writing? The University is, after all, a very competitive place (on a number of levels: in-class performance, popularity, and the post-graduation job market looming). So, basically, if everybody is looking out for their grade and doing so because they are scared they wont find a job, will they be able to collaborate in this kind of environment? Might we need to rethink collaboration in the terms of 'team work' in offices? Or, can we create an atmosphere in class which somehow replicates the spirit of the unprofitable but rewarding work on the wikipedia? Johanna Roering University of Tübingen On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Jennifer Stromer-Galley < jstromer@albany.edu> wrote:
I think you raise a good point, Margie, about vandalism -- why not test boundaries? It just hadn't occurred to me that they would, given the very public nature of Wikipedia. But, alas, what would Cartman do? I need to keep that in mind . . . .
Just to be clear, though, I didn't require my students to actually edit Wikipedia, because I agree with you. The last thing I want to do is subject the Wikipedia editors to my students who have neither the knowledge base, skills, or interest to edit particular pages. Now, I grant there are exceptions (some of my students have remarkable popular culture knowledge and good writing skills), but for the most part, they anyway aren't all that inclined to contribute to the collective wisdom exhibited in Wikipedia.
I should note that my students are creating a wiki on "Web 2.0" for the end of class, but on PB Wiki, and mostly as an exercise to expose them to online, collaborative writing.
~Jenny
Assistant Professor Department of Communication, SS 340 University at Albany, SUNY Albany, NY 12222 518-442-4873 jstromer@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~jstromer <http://www.albany.edu/%7Ejstromer>
-----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Margie Borschke Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:10 PM To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-L] in defense of wiki vandalism....
It strikes me as almost appropriate that students who are required to edit a Wikipedia entry as part of a class, ended up vandalizing pages. I think you could argue that it is a valid response to being forced into public participation, particularly in the context of a self-organising community where all the other participants are self selected. If you'd not edited Wikipedia before, wouldn't boundaries be the first thing you'd want to test? What would Cartman do? I assure you he's not going to try the sandbox first.
I think a lot of students would also 'get' that in addition to being a knowledge resource, wikipedia is also a kind of game, something former Wikipedia editor Brion Vibber pointed out in Nicholson Baker's NY Review of Books article, The Charms of Wikipedia.
While there are clearly good pedagogical uses of Wikipedia, required editing makes me uneasy. It's not so great for students to have to learn in public and not so great for the people participating to have a group of students descend upon them either.
--Margie Borschke
The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
What would Cartman do? Well, Cartman is a cartoon! I'd "hope" that we can expect better of real life than characters from South Park!!!!
-----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Margie Borschke Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:10 PM To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-L] in defense of wiki vandalism....
It strikes me as almost appropriate that students who are required to edit a Wikipedia entry as part of a class, ended up vandalizing pages. I think you could argue that it is a valid response to being forced into public participation, particularly in the context of a self-organising community where all the other participants are self selected. If you'd not edited Wikipedia before, wouldn't boundaries be the first thing you'd want to test? What would Cartman do? I assure you he's not going to try the sandbox first.
I think a lot of students would also 'get' that in addition to being a knowledge resource, wikipedia is also a kind of game, something former Wikipedia editor Brion Vibber pointed out in Nicholson Baker's NY Review of Books article, The Charms of Wikipedia.
While there are clearly good pedagogical uses of Wikipedia, required editing makes me uneasy. It's not so great for students to have to learn in public and not so great for the people participating to have a group of students descend upon them either.
--Margie Borschke
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Cartman merely represents a single facet of human nature- he is the quintessential trickster, the agent of chaos, inside everyone that automatically rejects norms forced upon us by society. Given an anonymous online environment, with instant gratification and no negative consequences, Cartman is bound to show up. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:49 AM, rsadler <rsadler@uiuc.edu> wrote:
What would Cartman do? Well, Cartman is a cartoon! I'd "hope" that we can expect better of real life than characters from South Park!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Margie Borschke Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:10 PM To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-L] in defense of wiki vandalism....
It strikes me as almost appropriate that students who are required to edit a Wikipedia entry as part of a class, ended up vandalizing pages. I think you could argue that it is a valid response to being forced into public participation, particularly in the context of a self-organising community where all the other participants are self selected. If you'd not edited Wikipedia before, wouldn't boundaries be the first thing you'd want to test? What would Cartman do? I assure you he's not going to try the sandbox first.
I think a lot of students would also 'get' that in addition to being a knowledge resource, wikipedia is also a kind of game, something former Wikipedia editor Brion Vibber pointed out in Nicholson Baker's NY Review of Books article, The Charms of Wikipedia.
While there are clearly good pedagogical uses of Wikipedia, required editing makes me uneasy. It's not so great for students to have to learn in public and not so great for the people participating to have a group of students descend upon them either.
--Margie Borschke
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
That is a good thing to point out Jordan. Cartman (or however you want to personify that part of human nature) is not only a real issue, but is what software designers and system managers just assume. The hard part of putting together a tool like Wikipedia or a community like an open editing system is anticipating the strange things that people will do and have happen to them. Whoever it was earlier in this thread that used the phrase "testing boundaries" was dead on. Wikipedia is hard because of the inevitable yet unpredictable confluence of events that will get in the way or make something change. These, I think, are often the barriers to people joining and using Wikipedia et al. Thanks, Gordon Carlson University of Illinois, Chicago On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Jordan Lynn <jordanl@uga.edu> wrote:
Cartman merely represents a single facet of human nature- he is the quintessential trickster, the agent of chaos, inside everyone that automatically rejects norms forced upon us by society. Given an anonymous online environment, with instant gratification and no negative consequences, Cartman is bound to show up.
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:49 AM, rsadler <rsadler@uiuc.edu> wrote:
What would Cartman do? Well, Cartman is a cartoon! I'd "hope" that we can expect better of real life than characters from South Park!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Margie Borschke Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:10 PM To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-L] in defense of wiki vandalism....
It strikes me as almost appropriate that students who are required to edit a Wikipedia entry as part of a class, ended up vandalizing pages. I think you could argue that it is a valid response to being forced into public participation, particularly in the context of a self-organising community where all the other participants are self selected. If you'd not edited Wikipedia before, wouldn't boundaries be the first thing you'd want to test? What would Cartman do? I assure you he's not going to try the sandbox first.
I think a lot of students would also 'get' that in addition to being a knowledge resource, wikipedia is also a kind of game, something former Wikipedia editor Brion Vibber pointed out in Nicholson Baker's NY Review of Books article, The Charms of Wikipedia.
While there are clearly good pedagogical uses of Wikipedia, required editing makes me uneasy. It's not so great for students to have to learn in public and not so great for the people participating to have a group of students descend upon them either.
--Margie Borschke
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Gordon Carlson C: 541-990-1155
Just a small correction... Brion Vibber is far from a former editor; he's actually the current CTO of the Wikimedia Foundation, responsible for technical maintenance of the servers and MediaWiki. He's made comments in the past about how Wikipedia is like a giant MMORPG for some users -- but it's as someone intimately familiar with how Wikipedia works inside and out. My own view is of course Wikipedia is entertaining to work on -- that's a big part of why so many people devote so many hours to it. But you are very right that those people are self-selected. On the other hand, the argument can be made that academics (and everyone, really) should have a responsibility to help keep up Wikipedia in their subject area. When students work on Wikipedia they have the potential to mess around in the real world and cause difficulties for the site, but also to make more of a difference than they would with any assignment like a paper that would never leave the classroom. That can be inspiring to many students. It just takes a lot of preparation on the part of everyone involved (see the Murray essay I posted in my last message). -- Phoebe On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Margie Borschke <margieborschke@iinet.net.au> wrote:
It strikes me as almost appropriate that students who are required to edit a Wikipedia entry as part of a class, ended up vandalizing pages. I think you could argue that it is a valid response to being forced into public participation, particularly in the context of a self-organising community where all the other participants are self selected. If you'd not edited Wikipedia before, wouldn't boundaries be the first thing you'd want to test? What would Cartman do? I assure you he's not going to try the sandbox first.
I think a lot of students would also 'get' that in addition to being a knowledge resource, wikipedia is also a kind of game, something former Wikipedia editor Brion Vibber pointed out in Nicholson Baker's NY Review of Books article, The Charms of Wikipedia.
While there are clearly good pedagogical uses of Wikipedia, required editing makes me uneasy. It's not so great for students to have to learn in public and not so great for the people participating to have a group of students descend upon them either.
--Margie Borschke _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
participants (7)
-
Gordon Carlson -
Jennifer Stromer-Galley -
joana ro -
Jordan Lynn -
Margie Borschke -
phoebe ayers -
rsadler