Hi all, I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important. Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature to their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a question, but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives other list members a chance to assess such credibility. Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com
I tend to think this is against the spirit of aoir as i've understood it to some extent. the idea should be more that... anyone with any credential or none can provide you answers that are as strong as any others. in short, my position is "I'd prefer the collegiality of shared knowledge over credentials any day". some of our best contributors in recent years have been undergraduate and graduate students and i'd like this to continue unhindered by the burden of being credentialed. so i'd say, no, people should not bother with credentials unless they personally feel that they need to 'represent' them for whatever reason. so we can have 'both', but there should be no feeling of compulsion or necessary association between credentials and expertise that people should assume. but that's just me.... jeremy On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Hi all,
I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important.
Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature to their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a question, but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives other list members a chance to assess such credibility.
Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Ditto to what jeremy said. Besides, if in doubt, you can always google (or yahoo or bing or ...). Best wishes, Yuwei -- Yuwei Lin | yuwei at ylin dot org http://www.ylin.org jeremy hunsinger wrote:
I tend to think this is against the spirit of aoir as i've understood it to some extent. the idea should be more that... anyone with any credential or none can provide you answers that are as strong as any others. in short, my position is "I'd prefer the collegiality of shared knowledge over credentials any day". some of our best contributors in recent years have been undergraduate and graduate students and i'd like this to continue unhindered by the burden of being credentialed.
so i'd say, no, people should not bother with credentials unless they personally feel that they need to 'represent' them for whatever reason. so we can have 'both', but there should be no feeling of compulsion or necessary association between credentials and expertise that people should assume.
but that's just me....
jeremy
On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Hi all,
I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important.
Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature to their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a question, but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives other list members a chance to assess such credibility.
Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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I agree. Dominic jeremy hunsinger wrote:
I tend to think this is against the spirit of aoir as i've understood it to some extent. the idea should be more that... anyone with any credential or none can provide you answers that are as strong as any others. in short, my position is "I'd prefer the collegiality of shared knowledge over credentials any day". some of our best contributors in recent years have been undergraduate and graduate students and i'd like this to continue unhindered by the burden of being credentialed.
so i'd say, no, people should not bother with credentials unless they personally feel that they need to 'represent' them for whatever reason. so we can have 'both', but there should be no feeling of compulsion or necessary association between credentials and expertise that people should assume.
but that's just me....
jeremy <snip>
-- Please help me support the Pirate Castle at http://www.justgiving.com/dominicpinto
Don't you think it makes a difference if the person giving me advice on a statistical software package has a Ph.D. in statistics (even if jobless), is an undergraduate student who heard about it from a friend (and yes, that info could still be very valid), or a marketing staff member of the software producing company? Yes, I know I can Google the name, but what's the harm is signing off with a title or at least a full name (to be able to google it?) Anyway, just a suggestion! All the best. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com
Sure. Who's actually speaking (or typing) can make a difference to the perceived validity of their comments. But the idea that professional credentials matter so much to assessing the value of a listserv message that people should be expected to provide them every time they post is another matter. I could, for example, claim that AIR-L has managed to survive pretty well for more than a decade without this sort of "norm" in place. But the perceived validity of my claim is more likely to be bolstered by the fact that I've been on the list for almost as long as the list has existed than it is by a list of my degrees and job titles. If you really want a helpful assessment of that hypothetical software package, it's probably more important to hear from someone who's actually used the software -- regardless of their degree status -- than to get advice from some random statistics PhD who's never heard of the software at all. The most helpful context and background in such cases simply isn't going to show up in most people's signatures. All the more so since an email signature is hardly ironclad proof of anything. Will this post *really* be more convincing to you if my signature tells you that I have a PhD from Harvard? What if it tells you that my PhD is from Illinois? What if it doesn't tell you where my PhD is from at all? Why are you suddenly going to believe what my signature tells you if you're already skeptical about the validity of everything else I've typed here? cheers gil Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Don't you think it makes a difference if the person giving me advice on a statistical software package has a Ph.D. in statistics (even if jobless), is an undergraduate student who heard about it from a friend (and yes, that info could still be very valid), or a marketing staff member of the software producing company? Yes, I know I can Google the name, but what's the harm is signing off with a title or at least a full name (to be able to google it?)
Anyway, just a suggestion!
All the best. Rasha
Oops, forgot the reply was reset to send to the poster, not the list. But that's another can of worms..... ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Rhiannon Bury <rcbury@rogers.com> To: Gilbert B. Rodman <gbrodman@mindspring.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:19:37 AM Subject: Re: [Air-L] Credentials To follow up on what Gil is saying, I agree that a formal credential does not necessarily "match" the advice. Surely any one who belongs to this list is capable of assessing the value of the advice based on the content of the message. For example, on another list, someone was asking for media sources containing scenes of homophobic violence in a school setting. Half the responses gave examples of homophobic violence but unrelated to a school setting (which is fine too; could be useful for another purpose/to others on the list). I wouldn't be chasing down the latter because a scholar with international standing provided it. That said, it is nice to know something about the poster in terms of full name, affiliation etc. I don't use my institutional email addie for listservs so sometimes when I post here, I forget add my .sig file info. Also, some of us have been around here so long that we forget that we aren't just talking to the people we know. ;) Rhiannon Rhiannon Bury Assistant Professor, Women's Studies Athabasca University rbury@athabascau.ca
no. so long as the person is correct or i can learn from them. I know at least 2 people on this list that do not have doctorates in statistics or doctorates at all and can probably answer 99% of statistical software questions quicker, better, and with less fuss, because they work with this software every day have taken training in the software, have read more textbooks related to statistics, etc. Now if you have question on whether you need a specific test to verify for certain sampling errors in a snowball sample, you might want to talk to a statistical counselor.... as there are certainly questions that some people face and answer better than others. However, I could send you to statistics ph.d.'s who would just tell you to buzz off too, so... in the end... i'd recommend take knowledge where you can get it, with the grains of salt it comes with. but i do think it is an interesting question. i just don't think, given my experiences, that credentials matter as much as demonstrable knowledge and while they may play a part in some cases, in the majority of cases I would not make that claim. so no... -jeremy On Aug 18, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Don't you think it makes a difference if the person giving me advice on a statistical software package has a Ph.D. in statistics (even if jobless), is an undergraduate student who heard about it from a friend (and yes, that info could still be very valid), or a marketing staff member of the software producing company? Yes, I know I can Google the name, but what's the harm is signing off with a title or at least a full name (to be able to google it?)
Anyway, just a suggestion!
All the best. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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I agree with Jeremy , and all the others:
Our "informal style" is a plus in this community . As you might have noticed, also our emails in air-l do not show our titles in the majority of cases. Other lists might have a different style. Fine. I work on AoIR conferences since 2001 (current Treasurer etc.) and we have never used Dr. Prof. etc. on our badges either , a little tradition we have strongly mantained over time to reinforce the idea of openess of our community to anyone who is smart, and ready to to serious debate and cultural exchange - besides formalities . In the name of this openess we welcome your suggestion and leave it up to our community the decision of adopting or not your proposal (but do not expect too much of a change from us :-)
Monica
Il giorno 18/ago/09, alle ore 17:02, jeremy hunsinger ha scritto:
no. so long as the person is correct or i can learn from them. I know at least 2 people on this list that do not have doctorates in statistics or doctorates at all and can probably answer 99% of statistical software questions quicker, better, and with less fuss, because they work with this software every day have taken training in the software, have read more textbooks related to statistics, etc. Now if you have question on whether you need a specific test to verify for certain sampling errors in a snowball sample, you might want to talk to a statistical counselor.... as there are certainly questions that some people face and answer better than others. However, I could send you to statistics ph.d.'s who would just tell you to buzz off too, so... in the end... i'd recommend take knowledge where you can get it, with the grains of salt it comes with.
but i do think it is an interesting question. i just don't think, given my experiences, that credentials matter as much as demonstrable knowledge and while they may play a part in some cases, in the majority of cases I would not make that claim.
so no...
-jeremy
On Aug 18, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Don't you think it makes a difference if the person giving me advice on a statistical software package has a Ph.D. in statistics (even if jobless), is an undergraduate student who heard about it from a friend (and yes, that info could still be very valid), or a marketing staff member of the software producing company? Yes, I know I can Google the name, but what's the harm is signing off with a title or at least a full name (to be able to google it?)
Anyway, just a suggestion!
All the best. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http:// aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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At 17:00 +0300 18/8/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Don't you think it makes a difference if the person giving me advice on a statistical software package has a Ph.D. in statistics (even if jobless), is an undergraduate student who heard about it from a friend (and yes, that info could still be very valid), or a marketing staff member of the software producing company? Yes, I know I can Google the name, but what's the harm is signing off with a title or at least a full name (to be able to google it?)
What of "The Black Swan"? Gordo -- "Think Feynman"///////// http://pobox.com/~gordo/ gordon.joly@pobox.com///
Gordon Joly wrote:
At 17:00 +0300 18/8/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Don't you think it makes a difference if the person giving me advice on a statistical software package has a Ph.D. in statistics (even if jobless), is an undergraduate student who heard about it from a friend (and yes, that info could still be very valid), or a marketing staff member of the software producing company? Yes, I know I can Google the name, but what's the harm is signing off with a title or at least a full name (to be able to google it?)
What of "The Black Swan"?
Lotsafun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Swan_(film) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034522/ -- Please help me support the Pirate Castle at http://www.justgiving.com/dominicpinto
At 23:57 +0100 23/8/09, Dominic Pinto wrote:
Gordon Joly wrote:
At 17:00 +0300 18/8/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Don't you think it makes a difference if the person giving me advice on a statistical software package has a Ph.D. in statistics (even if jobless), is an undergraduate student who heard about it from a friend (and yes, that info could still be very valid), or a marketing staff member of the software producing company? Yes, I know I can Google the name, but what's the harm is signing off with a title or at least a full name (to be able to google it?)
What of "The Black Swan"?
Lotsafun
Ah, no. I had this in mind: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Swan-Impact-Highly-Improbable/dp/0141034599/ Gordo -- "Think Feynman"///////// http://pobox.com/~gordo/ gordon.joly@pobox.com///
In my opinion, any rel;evant?"context" always helps one assess and? better understand the message. In today's world of Web 2.0 and user generated information, a credentialed title for some is a plus, but actually for some people, a certain level of credentials could even be a minus! The point is--I don't think it's prejudicial to provide relevant contextual information--one's region, university, and degree all say "something" likely true about that person's experiences and outlook, and then the reader, can choose to evaluate that context however they like. In a related note, I"ve been frustrated by the increasing number of blogs, Web sites, etc. that contain absolutely zero contact information--not even an email address--about the creator or author. There seems to be a trend that "what one says" is enough, but if one wants to get in touch with the author, it can be very frustrating when there's no easy way to do so. (On that point, I have just finished an article to address this point on sites and strategies for finding contact information, including emails on persons in a forthcoming issue of my professional journal, The Information Advisor (www.informationadvisor.com). If anyone wants a copy of the article, please email me directly) Robert Berkman Editor, The Information Advisor Associate Professor, Media Studies The New School New York, NY -----Original Message----- From: Dominic Pinto <dominic.pinto@ieee.org> To: jeremy hunsinger <jhuns@vt.edu> Cc: air-l@aoir.org Sent: Tue, Aug 18, 2009 9:20 am Subject: Re: [Air-L] Credentials I agree.? ? Dominic? ? jeremy hunsinger wrote:?
I tend to think this is against the spirit of aoir as i've understood > it to some extent. the idea should be more that... anyone with any > credential or none can provide you answers that are as strong as any > others. in short, my position is "I'd prefer the collegiality of > shared knowledge over credentials any day". some of our best > contributors in recent years have been undergraduate and graduate > students and i'd like this to continue unhindered by the burden of > being credentialed.? ? so i'd say, no, people should not bother with credentials unless they > personally feel that they need to 'represent' them for whatever > reason. so we can have 'both', but there should be no feeling of > compulsion or necessary association between credentials and expertise > that people should assume.? ? ? but that's just me....? ? jeremy? <snip>? ? -- Please help me support the Pirate Castle at? http://www.justgiving.com/dominicpinto? ? _______________________________________________? The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list? is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org? Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org? ? Join the Association of Internet Researchers:? http://www.aoir.org/?
I am sympathetic to the idea that we should be "named" in our posting to AIR-L. In fact, it's part of the expectations of the list: http://aoir.org/?page_id=3 . And for those who wish to self-identify ("Hello, I'm Alex, and I have a doctorate..."), I see no harm in that. I choose not to for a few reasons. First, I'm not sure precisely what the credential means in my own case, let alone others' cases. Surely, not all Ph.D. granting institutions are of similar stature--should we also be saying where we graduated from, and in what field? Do Sociology Ph.D.s hold more sway than humble Communication Ph.D.s? What were our field exams, and how did we do? Does the fact that I hold no high school degree diminish my credibility? I'm reminded of Bernays on Letterman ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6hH3roMe4w ). My hope is that I can be convincing enough without those three letters. Second, I consider all of you--approaching 2,000--colleagues. I was lucky enough to be considered the same by some of the eminent members of this list before I completed my doctorate, and so I want to do the same for those who are starting out in their own studies. For me, the use of titles in this context creates an unnecessary social distance. Again, to each their own, and if you choose to put your affiliations and credentials in your .sig, more power to you. But I wouldn't want it to become an expectation. Alex Halavais Person of Interest, Man About Town, Perpetual Student, Neophyte Baker, and Sometime Bamboo Fancier
this is indeed a valuable part of this listserv, this vertically horizontal exchange: I would have it any other way. i have always read this resource, have used it a few times, but have always very much appreciated the community from afar. i hope there are many others like me and i doff the chapeau to those. when i have used my credentials, as i am now, it has been a conscious attempt to establish context with those who cleave to credentials-mind. while i don't ascribe to that, i acknowledge it to be a part of the context of this area of interest. from henceforth, i will remove my credentials from any subsequent correspondence, which will be more frequent in the future with the announced of DMSC Governor's Challenge 4.0 Fall 2010. the dmsc govchal 4.0 uses this same kind of openness to extend resources for capacity building to non- and for-profit stakeholders. Winners from 3.0 can be accessed at www.tnsandbox.com we are working with the UGA listserv s work on Project Managment as platform for the Challenge 4.0, which moves from the follow guided system design: 1. research/production/publication 2. assessment 3. analytics 4. report/marketing/recruitment if interested, please contact me at below. All best in the best of all possible worlds, bob Robert R. Bradley Director of Technology Integration Communication and Information Technologies Tennessee State University 3500 John Merritt Parkway Nashville, TN 37209 cell: 615.579.7446 fax: 615.963.1371 rbradley@tnstate.edu Think. Work. Serve. www.tnsandbox.com ________________________________________ From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Alex Halavais [alex@halavais.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:53 AM To: air-l@aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] Credentials I am sympathetic to the idea that we should be "named" in our posting to AIR-L. In fact, it's part of the expectations of the list: http://aoir.org/?page_id=3 . And for those who wish to self-identify ("Hello, I'm Alex, and I have a doctorate..."), I see no harm in that. I choose not to for a few reasons. First, I'm not sure precisely what the credential means in my own case, let alone others' cases. Surely, not all Ph.D. granting institutions are of similar stature--should we also be saying where we graduated from, and in what field? Do Sociology Ph.D.s hold more sway than humble Communication Ph.D.s? What were our field exams, and how did we do? Does the fact that I hold no high school degree diminish my credibility? I'm reminded of Bernays on Letterman ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6hH3roMe4w ). My hope is that I can be convincing enough without those three letters. Second, I consider all of you--approaching 2,000--colleagues. I was lucky enough to be considered the same by some of the eminent members of this list before I completed my doctorate, and so I want to do the same for those who are starting out in their own studies. For me, the use of titles in this context creates an unnecessary social distance. Again, to each their own, and if you choose to put your affiliations and credentials in your .sig, more power to you. But I wouldn't want it to become an expectation. Alex Halavais Person of Interest, Man About Town, Perpetual Student, Neophyte Baker, and Sometime Bamboo Fancier _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
I'd rather put my life-experience qualifications. Doesn't that count? Jeff Jacobsen Mine Explorer Bungee Jumper Parachutist Anti-cult Activist See? Much more interesting... On 8/18/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla <rasha@aucegypt.edu> wrote:
Hi all,
I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important.
Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature to their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a question, but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives other list members a chance to assess such credibility.
Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Ok, folks, you've made your point. I've obviously stumbled on a beehive of some sort. All I meant was I'd personally appreciate it if the person talking to me (among others, I know) would let me know a little bit about who he/she is, if only for the sake of including folks like me who might not be lucky enough or experienced enough or have been around enough to know most people on the list. I apologize if I have offended anybody, that certainly wasn't my intention, but I still stand by my point that, personally, I'd like to know more about the people posting messages on a "public" listserv, and I don't think that's too much to ask (and yes, Jeff, knowing that you're a parachutist bungee jumper is actually interesting and gives me more perspective on who you are. At least I'll remember that next time you post a message since I haven't had the priviledge of meeting you personally yet). Of course we can argue for ages about whether this list is public or private, but that's another topic of discussion. I thank the few who sent me private messages of support, and the many who disagreed with me publicly. That's what the list is for, I guess. I'll continue to sign my full name and title/link/description/whatever, and I appreciate those who do others that courtesy and certainly now understand why others who don't don't. All the best. Rasha On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Jeff Jacobsen <cultxpt@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd rather put my life-experience qualifications. Doesn't that count?
Jeff Jacobsen Mine Explorer Bungee Jumper Parachutist Anti-cult Activist
See? Much more interesting...
On 8/18/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla <rasha@aucegypt.edu> wrote:
Hi all,
I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important.
Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature to their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a question, but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives other list members a chance to assess such credibility.
Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com
I think the beehive in question may stem from the tension - often acknowledged on this list - between the traditional type of learned authority or expertise (a credential delivered by an institution) and the Internet / hacker type of expertise (competence is publicly demonstrated irrespective of an attached offline identity). cheers, Mathieu On 19/08 /2009, at 1:13 PM, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Ok, folks, you've made your point. I've obviously stumbled on a beehive of some sort. All I meant was I'd personally appreciate it if the person talking to me (among others, I know) would let me know a little bit about who he/she is, if only for the sake of including folks like me who might not be lucky enough or experienced enough or have been around enough to know most people on the list. I apologize if I have offended anybody, that certainly wasn't my intention, but I still stand by my point that, personally, I'd like to know more about the people posting messages on a "public" listserv, and I don't think that's too much to ask (and yes, Jeff, knowing that you're a parachutist bungee jumper is actually interesting and gives me more perspective on who you are. At least I'll remember that next time you post a message since I haven't had the priviledge of meeting you personally yet). Of course we can argue for ages about whether this list is public or private, but that's another topic of discussion.
I thank the few who sent me private messages of support, and the many who disagreed with me publicly. That's what the list is for, I guess. I'll continue to sign my full name and title/link/description/whatever, and I appreciate those who do others that courtesy and certainly now understand why others who don't don't.
All the best. Rasha
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Jeff Jacobsen <cultxpt@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd rather put my life-experience qualifications. Doesn't that count?
Jeff Jacobsen Mine Explorer Bungee Jumper Parachutist Anti-cult Activist
See? Much more interesting...
On 8/18/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla <rasha@aucegypt.edu> wrote:
Hi all,
I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important.
Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature to their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a question, but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives other list members a chance to assess such credibility.
Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
-- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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Dr Mathieu O'Neil Adjunct Research Fellow Australian Demographic and Social Research Institute College of Arts and Social Science The Australian National University E-mail: mathieu.oneil@anu.edu.au Tel: (61 02) 61 25 38 00 Fax: (61 02) 61 25 29 92 Web: http://adsri.anu.edu.au/people/visitors/mathieu.php Mail: Coombs Building, 9 Canberra, ACT 0200 - AUSTRALIA
Hi, Rasha (and company) -- Since I was one of those who responded with an objection to your original request, let me pipe up to say that I appreciate the grace and courtesy with which you've responded below -- and to assure you that I, at least, took no offense to said request. So, IMHO, no apology on your part is actually necessary. I'd extend my earlier objection a bit -- in a friendly and respectful fashion, mind you -- by noting that the specific desire you express below ("to know more about the people posting messages," which is a pretty open-ended sort of curiosity) is different from your original request (wanting people to cite their credentials, which privileges a fairly narrow range of information about those people) in some pretty crucial ways. And I can appreciate the former much more than the latter. I certainly can't claim to know you well, but I suspect that I have a much better sense of who you are from seeing how you respond to the people who responded to your posts than I do from the fairly cold and impersonal facts that turn up in your signature. To be sure, there are contexts in which those sorts of professional facts will matter a great deal. If, for example, I'm trying to convince my department chair to pay for you to come to my campus and give a talk, for example, the credentials on your c.v. will matter much more than whether you can compose witty and charming emails. But I'm not sure this listserv is necessarily (or even usually) such a context. Moreover, what you call "public" settings (and, yes, it's a matter of debate whether this listserv is truly "public") are arguably *less* likely to be places where such credentials are routinely shared -- or where they matter. On a street corner, in a cafe, on a city bus (etc.), you're not likely to know the professional credentials (or even the names) of most of the people with whom you share those spaces. You can (and presumably do) still interact with many of those people on a regular basis -- and if you happen to share professional (or personal) information with one another, it's presumably only because it somehow matters to the immediate context of your specific interaction ... but not because there's some general rule that you can't trust your seatmate on the bus until you know where they went to school, where they work, and so on. If anything, I'd argue that it's actually *private* spaces where the "right" to have detailed information about other people's identities and backgrounds is more likely to come into play. If you surprise me by showing up unexpectedly in my kitchen, for example, I don't think I'm out of line to demand to know who you are and why you're rummaging through my freezer. But if you surprise me by showing up unexpectedly (from my perspective, anyway) at the corner of Washington and Cedar Avenues, I've got no inherent right to demand that you identify yourself and explain your presence. :) cheers gil Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Ok, folks, you've made your point. I've obviously stumbled on a beehive of some sort. All I meant was I'd personally appreciate it if the person talking to me (among others, I know) would let me know a little bit about who he/she is, if only for the sake of including folks like me who might not be lucky enough or experienced enough or have been around enough to know most people on the list. I apologize if I have offended anybody, that certainly wasn't my intention, but I still stand by my point that, personally, I'd like to know more about the people posting messages on a "public" listserv, and I don't think that's too much to ask (and yes, Jeff, knowing that you're a parachutist bungee jumper is actually interesting and gives me more perspective on who you are. At least I'll remember that next time you post a message since I haven't had the priviledge of meeting you personally yet). Of course we can argue for ages about whether this list is public or private, but that's another topic of discussion.
I thank the few who sent me private messages of support, and the many who disagreed with me publicly. That's what the list is for, I guess. I'll continue to sign my full name and title/link/description/whatever, and I appreciate those who do others that courtesy and certainly now understand why others who don't don't.
All the best. Rasha
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Jeff Jacobsen <cultxpt@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd rather put my life-experience qualifications. Doesn't that count?
Jeff Jacobsen Mine Explorer Bungee Jumper Parachutist Anti-cult Activist
See? Much more interesting...
On 8/18/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla <rasha@aucegypt.edu> wrote:
Hi all,
I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important.
Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature
to
their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a
question,
but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives
other
list members a chance to assess such credibility.
Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com
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_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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I am thinking now more positively about this "name dropping" "title dropping" stuff. And I admit I keep my degrees in frames behind my computer workstation at work. It could mean a loss of job or law suit if I routinely signed my home emails or school emails with my work title. I work with a legal requirement to keep data from respondents private. I can go to jail and be fined if I do breach data.
But this morning (I write these emails from home on my own time I am not paid to do this) as I am near to getting my thesis proposal approved at school I am in a more positive frame of mind. I am focusing on the success I have had discussing Internet studies here for a few years since finding this list while looking for a graduate studies program at Kingston University in Kingston, Ontario Canada. I also seem to have not been charged with data breach at my workplace and am handling my government position AOK. I was going to write something about intellectual exclusion but will just leave that term here. I don't think you want to hear my personal opinions of professors I have known over the years even if I have constructive things to say. Peter Timusk, B.Math statistics (2002), B.A. legal studies (2006) Carleton University Systems Science Graduate student, University of Ottawa. just trying to stay linear. Read by hundreds of lurkers every week. kiitos paljon, merci, thank you and muchas gracias for reading.
Dr. Rasha Abdulla - I'm OK with it either way. Yes I know a few people, and we've also had a few woes in the past with those who had frauded their ID after being banned from this list. There are some messages I don't read when I feel I don't know enough about the sender (present company excluded of course). I take great pride in my Sig because I hope people may check out my *brilliant* web page (sending up a new web page today), so that explains my enthusiasm. Otherwise I figure I'm a non-entity as I don't hold a permanent university position ;-) but that has never stopped me from having my say!!!! Cheers, Denise Denise N. Rall, PhD. Special Projects, Faculty of Arts & Science, Southern Cross University, Lismore NSW 2480 AUSTRALIA Mobile +(61) (0)438 233 344 http://www.scu.edu.au/schools/esm/staff/pages/drall/ Join the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Internet Research 10.0, October 7-11, Milwaukee, WI, USA __________________________________________________________________________________ Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local. Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
I'd resist calling it a courtesy, as it isn't in many ways and from many perspectives. I think everyone here does understand why some might desire 'titles' or 'credentials' as indicators, but there are also many who are skeptical. I think it is a worthwhile claim to make in some communities, for instance, wikipedia, you should always demand it there (ok, so that's snarky, we were comparably very kind as compared to some of the discussions there). I doubt you've offended anyone and I'm happy you've found private support. There is likely general support also, but honestly it likely a topic to get many people involved. but it is basically the same situation, if people feel like announcing their titles and most do, less as a courtesy, then because their email program automagically attaches them, or because their university's office of communications and faculty handbook requires it in all official communication, or some other reason. So all in all, I guess what i'm saying is people will do what they tend to do, but some people don't want any requirements in this arena and i think that a solid argument was made as to why. Now... maybe if we can find a way to configure the list so that it bounces all messages with full signatures.... heh -j On Aug 18, 2009, at 11:13 PM, Dr. Rasha Abdulla wrote:
Ok, folks, you've made your point. I've obviously stumbled on a beehive of some sort. All I meant was I'd personally appreciate it if the person talking to me (among others, I know) would let me know a little bit about who he/she is, if only for the sake of including folks like me who might not be lucky enough or experienced enough or have been around enough to know most people on the list. I apologize if I have offended anybody, that certainly wasn't my intention, but I still stand by my point that, personally, I'd like to know more about the people posting messages on a "public" listserv, and I don't think that's too much to ask (and yes, Jeff, knowing that you're a parachutist bungee jumper is actually interesting and gives me more perspective on who you are. At least I'll remember that next time you post a message since I haven't had the priviledge of meeting you personally yet). Of course we can argue for ages about whether this list is public or private, but that's another topic of discussion.
I thank the few who sent me private messages of support, and the many who disagreed with me publicly. That's what the list is for, I guess. I'll continue to sign my full name and title/link/description/whatever, and I appreciate those who do others that courtesy and certainly now understand why others who don't don't.
All the best. Rasha
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Jeff Jacobsen <cultxpt@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd rather put my life-experience qualifications. Doesn't that count?
Jeff Jacobsen Mine Explorer Bungee Jumper Parachutist Anti-cult Activist
See? Much more interesting...
On 8/18/09, Dr. Rasha Abdulla <rasha@aucegypt.edu> wrote:
Hi all,
I've been wanting to ask this of the list members for a while, but was afraid it might be offensive to some. But I'm increasingly convinced that it's important.
Could list members please list their full names and titles as a signature to their messages? It may not make much difference if you're asking a question, but it certainly does when you're providing an answer or even making a comment. I think it adds to the credibility of the message, and gives other list members a chance to assess such credibility.
Thank you. Take care. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http:// aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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-- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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jeremy hunsinger Center for Digital Discourse and Culture Virginia Tech Information Ethics Fellow, Center for Information Policy Research, School of Information Studies, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (www.cipr.uwm.edu ) wiki.tmttlt.com www.tmttlt.com () ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail /\ - against microsoft attachments http://www.stswiki.org/ sts wiki http://cfp.learning-inquiry.info/ Learning Inquiry-the journal http://transdisciplinarystudies.tmttlt.com/ Transdisciplinary Studies:the book series
Ok, I can't resist:) One (hopefully final) reply on my part. This is actually a message that I've written privately to a list member in reply to their private message, but I think it might add some value. I want to stress on two things though: 1) I never said I wanted titles to be a requirement, it was simply a request for people to identify themselves more; and 2) I never claimed academics (or those with Ph.D.s or whoever) are necessarily better, or more credible, or more knowledgeable than others. As I'm sure you know, people will be more credible depending on their relevance to the matter in question. It was simply that relevance that I requested them to make clear. And I do not think that getting text book recommendations or advice on how to code content analysis is the same as talking to a stranger on a bus, although of course all information should be judged critically. Here's the message. And again thank you all for your responses, public and private. And special thanks to those who did include some kind of affiliation. To me, it adds more value and context to the message, and I still don't think it hurts anyone (unless people are bent on taking it in a negative sense). -------- Thank you for your email. I have to admit that perhaps the title I put on my message in a haste (credentials) was perhaps not conducive to the nature of my message. I actually didn't mean it in that sense. All I meant was I wanted to know if the person writing me is an academic (and if so, roughly with how much experience), professional, average reader who happens to be on the list, or sales person. And I know of course the title line doesn't necessarily provide that image or any image at all, but still, it's better than getting a sleuth of messages advising me on statistical matters (which I utterly appreciate) with only a first name signature (and it could be my ignorance that I don't know that first name, but still the result is the same). Nowhere have I mentioned anything to indicate that I value one category (academics, for example) over another, indeed in many instances a professional hacker will be a lot more credible to me than a professor who lectures about hacking, but I simply believe I have the right to know which is which, to know a little about who's talking to me about things that matter. That's all! Thanks again for your interest and for taking the time to reply. All the best. Rasha -- Rasha A. Abdulla, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Journalism and Mass Communication The American University in Cairo www.rashaabdulla.com
participants (15)
-
Alex Halavais -
Bradley, Robert -
Denise N. Rall -
Dominic Pinto -
Dr. Rasha Abdulla -
Gilbert B. Rodman -
Gordon Joly -
Jeff Jacobsen -
jeremy hunsinger -
Mathieu O'Neil -
Monica Murero -
Peter Timusk -
rberkmanļ¼ aol.com -
Rhiannon Bury -
Yuwei Lin