I think that you (Elijah, Ellis, Jeremy and others) may be working at cross-purposes here because of the slipperiness of the term "identity"--illustrating again (ironically?) the need for us to define specifically how we use a term. Concerning collective identity I see three possibilities--there may be more. 1)If by collective identity you mean a sense of self-identity like that held by an individual, then collective identity isn't possible unless you believe that a collective has/can have a consciousness (or sub/unconscious) above/separate from those of the individuals making it up. Note that I am specifying consciousness here, not collective behavior. I am unconvinced by supposed empirical evidence of collective consciousness, the appeal of functionalist or Jungian explanations of the social world not withstanding. 2)If by collective identity you mean that individuals' sense of identity is intertwined with/formed in some measure through their membership in/identification with a group, then it obviously does exist. To use a trivial example, living in the shadow of Virginia Tech I constantly encounter neighbors who first and foremost identify themselves as "Hokies" (whatever that means). Though it may mean somewhat different things to the different people who identify themselves in this way, they certainly have enough in common--shared symbols (e.g. a fiberglass statue of a turkey in a business suit--really, I'm serious!) and rituals (watching "the game," modes of discourse, etc.)--that they relate to each other fairly unproblematically, and give every appearance of sharing meaning beyond a general drift. As an aside, this also raises the question of the stability of individuals' sense of identity--how it seems to change with context or over time. Again my neighborhood lots of people seem to identify themselves as Hokies on football Saturdays who otherwise identify themselves as bankers, farmers, parents, Budweiser drinkers, whatever, the rest of the week. And some of them claim to identify with collectivities such as political parties the values of which seem to contradict their self proclaimed identities in other contexts. 3) If by collective identity you mean that we, as observers, can identify collectives and members of collectives by their use of symbols, participation in rituals, etc., again, it seems to me obvious that it does, in this sense, exist. Of course, I may be off-base here. Good discussion, though! chris Christopher J. Richter Assoc. Prof. & Chair, Communication Studies Hollins University P.O. Box 9652 Roanoke VA, 24020 Tel. 5403626358 Fax 5403626286 e-mail crichter@hollins.edu web www.hollins.edu -----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Hunsinger Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:28 PM To: ellis.godard@csun.edu Cc: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-l] conceptual lexicon Umm, I don't think we dodged it, it is just that it can't be described to you given the framework that you require. It exists, you can see it all over. The clearest physical expression of collective identity is usually expressed relation to in architecture, local customs, and related activities. Do three friends always hug when they meet, what always happens in groups that takes no individual decision... tons of things. Some families have collective identities, some schools do, and almost all military units do too, which was one of the major military critiques of the 'army of one' campaign. On Aug 4, 2006, at 5:19 PM, Ellis Godard wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

...

You can't get there from where you are. you have to toss the atomism and start considering that there are molecules and moles which act fundamentally different as a whole than as a collection of atoms.

I'm of course not questioning that collective behavior is distinct from atomistic or unitary behavior. I'm questioning whether "collective identity" meaningfully exists, anywhere - a question you and Elijah both dodged, even though I invited a half dozen kinds of possible responses. For example (again) what is the "collective identity" of this list?

-eg

jeremy hunsinger Assistant Professor Pratt Institute www.cddc.vt.edu wiki.tmttlt.com www.tmttlt.com () ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail /\ - against microsoft attachments http://www.stswiki.org/ sts wiki http://cfp.learning-inquiry.info/ Learning Inquiry-the journal http://transdisciplinarystudies.tmttlt.com/ Transdisciplinary Studies:the book series _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/