Re: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is
"Matthias Trenel" <matthias.trenel@gmail.com> 11/21/06 3:33 PM >>> On a further note, which explains my interest in this issue, I want point you to the e-petitioning system at the German Parliament, which Zebralog is currently evaluating:
Public Petitions at the German Parliament: Zebralog evaluates pilot project http://www.zebralog.de/en/000195.html Matthias, Is this the pilot the Bundestag modelled on the e-petitioning system of the Scottish Parliament? Ildiko ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ildiko Kaposi <pphkai01@phd.ceu.hu> Date: Nov 18, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Stephen, I believe Wainer's 'delight' was ironic at best, even sarcastic - precisely because he senses political spin behind the initiative. The more I learn about it, the more it seems like the site is an exercise in electronic populism. I thought the idea of push-button/point-n-click panacea for democracy was passe, but your government appears to think otherwise. It is hard to make predictions, but if this is an empty exercise, devoid of deliberation or obligations for the PM to take the petitions into consideration, it will probably not be a lasting success with British citizens. Ildiko Kaposi ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Coleman <S.Coleman@leeds.ac.uk> Date: Nov 18, 2006 10:33 AM Subject: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org I don't share Wainer Lusoli's apparent delight at the arrival of the Ten Downing Street e-petitions tool. From a political perspective, one might ask why citizens are being urged to petition the Prime Minister, when the UK's system of government is not presidential, but parliamentary. More significantly, this technology has been built so that people are only allowed to sign petitions, but not discuss them. Unlike the Scottish Parliament's e-petitions, public deliberation is prohibited. This leads to a narrow notion of democracy without discussion in which petitions can claim neither representative nor deliberative legitimacy. >From the perspective of internet research, this is an interesting illustration of how political design can undermine technical potential. Contrast this with the great tradition of political petitioning that has existed in Britain since the late thirteenth century. The Chartists of the mid-nineteenth-century did not make a political impact by collecting signatures, but by holding mass meetings to discuss the cause of their petition. Imagine iif the Chartists - or the disarmament movement of the 1960s - had been allowed only to plead with the Prime Minister rather than assemble, deliberate and develop their own convictions. Citizens sending petitions via this new e-tool should be encouraged to subvert its intended restrictive use by setting up an alternative web space in which propositions can be openly discussed and revised. Stephen Coleman, Professor of Political Communication, Institute of Communications Studies, University of Leeds ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: W.Lusoli@lse.ac.uk <W.Lusoli@lse.ac.uk> Date: Nov 17, 2006 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Hi Ildico - thanks for this. well, a number of reasons really. First that the PM is a self-confessed technophobe; then because the Tories and Labour are waging an escalating war on who is reaching out more to the public using ICTs [Webcameron, Osborne, conservative blogs, Labour' new campaign space]; then because the website had 500 [500 !!] submissions in two days; then because it all looks soooo transparent, but is it; etcetera, etctera and etcetera once more. My eyes are now sore for the rubbing Cheers Wainer ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ildiko Kaposi <pphkai01@phd.ceu.hu> Date: Nov 17, 2006 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Wainer, What's the reason for your disbelief? I took only a cursory glance at the sight, so I'm not well-informed. First of all, I don't know what the online petitioning implies exactly, i.e. whether there are any obligatory consequences for the Right Hon. Blair or government policy. But online petitioning as such is practised elsewhere, and e-democracy has been something of a priority for the UK government, so this seems to fit the pattern. Am I misreading the initiative? Ildiko
"Wainer Lusoli" <w.lusoli@lse.ac.uk> 11/17/06 1:56 PM >>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/
Still rubbing my eyes in disbelief Any thoughts, anyone? Wainer -------------------------------------------- Wainer Lusoli http://www.lusoli.info http://del.icio.us/lusoli http://www.i-pol.org -------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
Is it me or a number of social networking websites [facebook, myspace, essembly] have been recently poised to foster [directly, mind you] greater civic involvement? My Political Space - Business week http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13940637/site/newsweek/ MySpace Pushes Public Service - Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/04/AR2006070401... Participatory Media And The Pedagogy Of Civic Participation - Howard Rheingold http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/11/14/participatory_media_and_the_pe... Are these sites [I know, I know, not merely sites] really pushing the envelope, or is it just us academics fantasizing once more about new media and political engagement? Or none of the above? Need more research. W
Hi Ildiko,
Is this the pilot the Bundestag modelled on the e-petitioning system of the Scottish Parliament?
Yes, that's right. As far as the technology is concerned: The Bundestag adopted the e-petitioner system that was developed by the International Teledemocracy Center and first employed by the Scottish Parliament (later also by Local Authorities in England: Kingston and Bristol). But the similarities might stop beyond technology, e.g. the Bundestag hasn't had a public hearing for public petitions yet while that happens with almost all petitions in Scotland, as far as I know. Best, Matthias On 11/21/06, Ildiko Kaposi <pphkai01@phd.ceu.hu> wrote:
"Matthias Trenel" <matthias.trenel@gmail.com> 11/21/06 3:33 PM >>> On a further note, which explains my interest in this issue, I want point you to the e-petitioning system at the German Parliament, which Zebralog is currently evaluating:
Public Petitions at the German Parliament: Zebralog evaluates pilot project http://www.zebralog.de/en/000195.html
Matthias,
Is this the pilot the Bundestag modelled on the e-petitioning system of the Scottish Parliament?
Ildiko
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ildiko Kaposi <pphkai01@phd.ceu.hu> Date: Nov 18, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org
Stephen,
I believe Wainer's 'delight' was ironic at best, even sarcastic - precisely because he senses political spin behind the initiative.
The more I learn about it, the more it seems like the site is an exercise in electronic populism. I thought the idea of push-button/point-n-click panacea for democracy was passe, but your government appears to think otherwise. It is hard to make predictions, but if this is an empty exercise, devoid of deliberation or obligations for the PM to take the petitions into consideration, it will probably not be a lasting success with British citizens.
Ildiko Kaposi
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Coleman <S.Coleman@leeds.ac.uk> Date: Nov 18, 2006 10:33 AM Subject: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org
I don't share Wainer Lusoli's apparent delight at the arrival of the Ten Downing Street e-petitions tool. From a political perspective, one might ask why citizens are being urged to petition the Prime Minister, when the UK's system of government is not presidential, but parliamentary. More significantly, this technology has been built so that people are only allowed to sign petitions, but not discuss them. Unlike the Scottish Parliament's e-petitions, public deliberation is prohibited. This leads to a narrow notion of democracy without discussion in which petitions can claim neither representative nor deliberative legitimacy. >From the perspective of internet research, this is an interesting illustration of how political design can undermine technical potential.
Contrast this with the great tradition of political petitioning that has existed in Britain since the late thirteenth century. The Chartists of the mid-nineteenth-century did not make a political impact by collecting signatures, but by holding mass meetings to discuss the cause of their petition. Imagine iif the Chartists - or the disarmament movement of the 1960s - had been allowed only to plead with the Prime Minister rather than assemble, deliberate and develop their own convictions.
Citizens sending petitions via this new e-tool should be encouraged to subvert its intended restrictive use by setting up an alternative web space in which propositions can be openly discussed and revised.
Stephen Coleman, Professor of Political Communication, Institute of Communications Studies, University of Leeds
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: W.Lusoli@lse.ac.uk <W.Lusoli@lse.ac.uk> Date: Nov 17, 2006 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org
Hi Ildico - thanks for this.
well, a number of reasons really. First that the PM is a self-confessed technophobe; then because the Tories and Labour are waging an escalating war on who is reaching out more to the public using ICTs [Webcameron, Osborne, conservative blogs, Labour' new campaign space]; then because the website had 500 [500 !!] submissions in two days; then because it all looks soooo transparent, but is it; etcetera, etctera and etcetera once more.
My eyes are now sore for the rubbing
Cheers
Wainer
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ildiko Kaposi <pphkai01@phd.ceu.hu> Date: Nov 17, 2006 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Petition Tony Blair, online that is To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org
Wainer,
What's the reason for your disbelief?
I took only a cursory glance at the sight, so I'm not well-informed. First of all, I don't know what the online petitioning implies exactly, i.e. whether there are any obligatory consequences for the Right Hon. Blair or government policy. But online petitioning as such is practised elsewhere, and e-democracy has been something of a priority for the UK government, so this seems to fit the pattern. Am I misreading the initiative?
Ildiko
"Wainer Lusoli" <w.lusoli@lse.ac.uk> 11/17/06 1:56 PM >>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/
Still rubbing my eyes in disbelief
Any thoughts, anyone?
Wainer
-------------------------------------------- Wainer Lusoli http://www.lusoli.info http://del.icio.us/lusoli http://www.i-pol.org --------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ _______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
_______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
--- Ildiko Kaposi <pphkai01@phd.ceu.hu> wrote:
"Matthias Trenel" <matthias.trenel@gmail.com> 11/21/06 3:33 PM >>> On a further note, which explains my interest in this issue, I want point you to the e-petitioning system at the German Parliament, which Zebralog is currently evaluating:
Public Petitions at the German Parliament: Zebralog evaluates pilot project http://www.zebralog.de/en/000195.html
Qualitative evaluation of petitions, and their impact and effect (if not effectiveness) may be some way down the line. I do like, however some of the UK online petitions so far: e.g. We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to stand on his head and juggle ice-cream. Submitted by Tim Ireland of Bloggerheads Deadline to sign up by: 16 August 2007 Signatures: 852 We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Resign immediately Submitted by Edward Clarke Deadline to sign up by: 15 December 2006 Signatures: 278 We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Include a "None of the Above" on Voting Forms Submitted by Stidder Deadline to sign up by: 17 February 2007 Signatures: 120 Dominic Pinto BA MIEEE MCMI MRi FRSA http://www.ecademy.com/user/dominicpinto e-m: dominic.pinto@ieee.org M: +44 780 302-8268 Ph: +44 207 379-8341 In the U.S. M/Cell: +1 215 667-3001
participants (4)
-
Dominic Pinto -
Ildiko Kaposi -
Matthias Trenel -
W.Lusoli＠lse.ac.uk