Thanks, However, I do not immediately see paragraph numbering in Kindle (This is the PC version). Perhaps it is a feature of other e-readers. Rich L. ________________________________________ From: Steve Hyzny [nettrainer@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 15:11 To: Ling Richard Seyler (ASA) Cc: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] Citing from a Kindle I just attended a Capella University colloquim and this was a topic that was raises. When referenceing and e-book since page numbers can adjust with font size and other issues is to use the Chapter/section title and paragraph number instead of page number. Stephen R. Hyzny Professor DeVry University Cisco CCNA, CCAI, Microsoft MCSE, Novell MCNE, CNI Comptia A+, Network+ CTT+, Server+, Security+ http:\\www.instructornetwork.com On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:05 AM, <richard.ling@telenor.com> wrote:

Dear all,

I have started to download some academic books onto a Kindle account. It is ok for reading and for noting different thoughts as I read.

However, since there is no page numbering, how do you cite the location of material in the books when you include it in your own work?

What are the requirements for in-line cites and for the bibliography?

Are the line numbers unique for Kindle and there is another set for the Apple iBooks, etc?

What is a modern scholar to do?

Rich L. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

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You actually have to count the paragraphs, I believe. BTW this is hard work. I agree with Jeremy's sentiment. I found after taking a full course on legal citation style for Canadian legal scholarship that the last and hardest job is citation in a paper. Often I had to drop sentences because I could not find the citation to the idea. I now try to blog everything I read so I don't loose these things so much. Also there are still professors out there I am sure and thus reviewers who may prefer a citation to hard copy rather than electronic. That's my understanding of the preference order. Peter Timusk B.Math statistics. BA legal studies Legal studies of the Information Age Vice President Computers for Communites School work blog http://notebook.webpagex.org Some papers www.webpagex.org -----Original Message----- From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of richard.ling@telenor.com Sent: January-04-11 9:16 AM To: nettrainer@gmail.com Cc: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] Citing from a Kindle Thanks, However, I do not immediately see paragraph numbering in Kindle (This is the PC version). Perhaps it is a feature of other e-readers. Rich L. ________________________________________ From: Steve Hyzny [nettrainer@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 15:11 To: Ling Richard Seyler (ASA) Cc: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] Citing from a Kindle I just attended a Capella University colloquim and this was a topic that was raises. When referenceing and e-book since page numbers can adjust with font size and other issues is to use the Chapter/section title and paragraph number instead of page number. Stephen R. Hyzny Professor DeVry University Cisco CCNA, CCAI, Microsoft MCSE, Novell MCNE, CNI Comptia A+, Network+ CTT+, Server+, Security+ http:\\www.instructornetwork.com On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:05 AM, <richard.ling@telenor.com> wrote:

Dear all,

I have started to download some academic books onto a Kindle account. It is ok for reading and for noting different thoughts as I read.

However, since there is no page numbering, how do you cite the location of material in the books when you include it in your own work?

What are the requirements for in-line cites and for the bibliography?

Are the line numbers unique for Kindle and there is another set for the Apple iBooks, etc?

What is a modern scholar to do?

Rich L. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/

_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/

Thanks for these comments. They help with the bibliography and with eventual bibliographic footnotes. However in many styles there is the use of in-line citations such as (Jones 2005, 34). Sometimes you can get away with just citing the whole work. However, if it is a direct quote, should it be something like (Jones 2005, location 1543) or, "according to Jones (2005, location 1543)"? Somehow that seems awkward. Rich L. ________________________________________ From: air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [air-l-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Edward M. Corrado [ecorrado@ecorrado.us] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 15:24 To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-L] Citing from a Kindle Obviously this, to some degree, depends on the citation style. For the 16'th editions. Chicago added some guidelines. Basically: "Note that electronic formats do not always carry stable page numbers (e.g., pagination may depend on text size), a factor that potentially limits their suitability as sources. In lieu of a page number, include an indication of chapter or section or other locator." (rule 14.166) and: "Electronic sources do not always include page numbers (and some that do include them repaginate according to user-defined text size). For such unpaginated works, it may be appropriate in a note to include a chapter or paragraph number (if available), a section heading, or a descriptive phrase that follows the organizational divisions of the work. In citations of shorter electronic works presented as a single, searchable document, such locators may be unnecessary." (rule 14.17) In other words, do the best you can! Edward On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:05 AM, <richard.ling@telenor.com> wrote:

Dear all,

I have started to download some academic books onto a Kindle account. It is ok for reading and for noting different thoughts as I read.

However, since there is no page numbering, how do you cite the location of material in the books when you include it in your own work?

What are the requirements for in-line cites and for the bibliography?

Are the line numbers unique for Kindle and there is another set for the Apple iBooks, etc?

What is a modern scholar to do?

Rich L. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/

_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/

Actually, I think the solution jeremy dismisses is the obvious one: you should cite to a URI. It's a shame that copyright laws make that... difficult. In some ways, I suspect a resource that was *like* Google Books, and provided a fragment with context, would be useful. So if I talk about reasons to cite sources I could drop a link (http://bit.ly/reasonstocite), and fulfill at least the findability function of the citation. But, of course, this raises its own problems. Not all books are in Preview or Full on Google Books (whether that is a good or a bad thing is, of course, an issue of hot debate), the traditional library system is nicely redundant and distributed, providing some reliability (though one could imagine a distributed alternative to Google Books without too much difficulty). Not to mention the issues of URI ugliness, shortener (like the bit.ly link above) longevity and obscurity, and the like. I disagree with the idea, however, that we should maintain page numbers as a form of due diligence. There comes a time when we have to get past horseless-carriage thinking, and recognize that when certain communities are reading more off the page than on, it's time for a new standard. And I'll be bold enough to suggest that AIR, as a group, is a perfect place to come to consensus on that standard. Who better? Alex On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 10:01 AM, jeremy hunsinger <jhuns@vt.edu> wrote:

direct quotes are less of a worry than providing reference, I'd think.  One can search for a direct quote and usually find it.   However, if someone is referencing an idea, we really do need the exact page or location of the item in question.   My solution is simple, go to the library and find the page number.   That to me is just doing 'due diligence' as an author citing another's work.  I work primarily with e-books, usually in pdf format with page numbers, but when it is missing... I go to the library and look up the page number.   Sometimes i can also find it in google books or amazon books.   In short, that you have a gadget that transforms the text... that doesn't mean you should be using that gadget's lack of provision/affordance to not provide page numbers as justification for providing less useful/common information, as the reason for providing the citation is not for your use, but for the rest of the world who does not necessarily use the gadget that you have.

For instance, I have transformed around 100 books into fragments and reconstructions for my own use, i keep them in slipbox.   They are still the 'books', but they are in a format that I use.   Should i be able to say... oh you should all use slipbox, it is slip 1754 in stack 5, downloadable here.   .... I'm guessing not.  Even if slipbox had a standard methodology and was used by 500k people, it isn't about those people, it is about the readers. So, please look up the page numbers if you can.

granted, that in some scholarly topics there are unique citation traditions, such as in plato, aristotle, kant, etc. and one should stick with the tradition which is most commonly used centrally to the tradition, i'd guess. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

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-- -- // // This email is // [x] assumed public and may be blogged / forwarded. // [ ] assumed to be private, please ask before redistributing. // // Alexander C. Halavais, ciberflâneur // http://alex.halavais.net //

Digital source or not, I think some sort of locator is still necessary/desirable for direct quotes. I'm not sure why those should be an exception to Jeremy's love of page numbers (which I share, though I can imagine functional equivalents being used for paper-less sources). If I'm actually trying to find a quoted passage -- because I'm curious, because I want to see the broader context from which the passage was pulled, because I want to cite the original source myself, because I'm shocked that such a passage exists in the work in question, etc. -- I don't want to have to hunt down the words in question in the middle of the full text. To be sure, there are instances where this isn't a completely onerous burden: a 100-word passage from a 20-page journal article may be easy enough to find. Still, the goal of a good citation is to help your reader find the precise source for the cited words/ideas, not just the general location where your reader can go hunting for them. More to the point, that same passage will be much more difficult to locate in a 350-page book. And a shorter phrase may not be possible to locate at all without actually reading the cited work straight through from start to finish. To use a real example, if all an author tells you about the phrase, "the impossible science of the individual," is that it comes from Roland Barthes' /Camera Lucida/, you're probably not going to want to skim through the entire book to figure out where (or even if) that six-word phrase appears ... especially since, as far as I can tell from actually trying to chase down those words on the basis of a page-free citation, they dont appear in Barthes' text at all. cheers gil On 01/04/2011 09:32 AM, jeremy hunsinger wrote:

how about a group that centers on bibliography and citation much more closely, like MLA or IFLA or somesuch?

as for page numbers, let me say this... if you submit a paper to a journal and it comes to me without them or some similarly recognized convention, I'm probably going to note that in the review and require it to be done, and I think any editor or reviewer would do the same. As i said, i don't think you necessarily need them for direct quotes, and i think you don't necessarily need them in certain other common sense instances, but sometimes... for reference page numbers or other indexical values are necessary. If a reviewer or editor can't find what you are talking about in a text, they should be... worried... Currently then, the practice is to include them for due diligence. Whether, that changes in our lifetime... i don't know, it could. Should we reject it or change it, for my part, no. I like page numbers immensely, they make my life much easier.

...

I disagree with the idea, however, that we should maintain page numbers as a form of due diligence. There comes a time when we have to get past horseless-carriage thinking, and recognize that when certain communities are reading more off the page than on, it's time for a new standard.

And I'll be bold enough to suggest that AIR, as a group, is a perfect place to come to consensus on that standard. Who better?

Alex

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 10:01 AM, jeremy hunsinger<jhuns@vt.edu> wrote:

...

direct quotes are less of a worry than providing reference, I'd think. One can search for a direct quote and usually find it. However, if someone is referencing an idea, we really do need the exact page or location of the item in question. My solution is simple, go to the library and find the page number. That to me is just doing 'due diligence' as an author citing another's work. I work primarily with e-books, usually in pdf format with page numbers, but when it is missing... I go to the library and look up the page number. Sometimes i can also find it in google books or amazon books. In short, that you have a gadget that transforms the text... that doesn't mean you should be using that gadget's lack of provision/affordance to not provide page numbers as justification for providing less useful/common information, as the reason for providing the citation is not for your use, but for the rest of the world who does not necessarily use the gadget that you have.

For instance, I have transformed around 100 books into fragments and reconstructions for my own use, i keep them in slipbox. They are still the 'books', but they are in a format that I use. Should i be able to say... oh you should all use slipbox, it is slip 1754 in stack 5, downloadable here. .... I'm guessing not. Even if slipbox had a standard methodology and was used by 500k people, it isn't about those people, it is about the readers. So, please look up the page numbers if you can.

granted, that in some scholarly topics there are unique citation traditions, such as in plato, aristotle, kant, etc. and one should stick with the tradition which is most commonly used centrally to the tradition, i'd guess. _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/

-- -- // // This email is // [x] assumed public and may be blogged / forwarded. // [ ] assumed to be private, please ask before redistributing. // // Alexander C. Halavais, ciberflâneur // http://alex.halavais.net // _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ Jeremy Hunsinger Political Science Center for Digital Discourse and Culture Virginia Tech

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_______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org

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scholarship is changing...and in many ways it isn't some scholars are at the technological bleeding edge...and many are not routines and gatekeeper practices are shifting...but not for everyone new things count for promotion & tenure...and some places they simply do not What does this transitional condition mean for citation? To the best of your ability, with the lowest transaction cost for the readers, reviewers & editors, you must help us validate your citations when we choose to do so. Old school conventions need to be obeyed, for now, until new ones are more firmly established. Early adopters of new conventions beware (but thank-you!) as you will need to use them, for now, only to augment old conventions. Users of eBooks should comment regularly to makers of eBooks about the need for meta data options in the reader screen. Five to seven years from know, the current citation paradigm will be gone; dust in the wind. A more hypertext-driven social annotation/citation paradigm will emerge in e-journals so that anytime you see a quotation you will be able to click on it and see abundant meta data for the quote or citation, as well as the inventory of ways in which that cited item has been used in your discipline and more generally. The best book I have read on the general subject: Everything is Miscellaneous by David Weinberger -- Stuart Shulman President & CEO Texifter, LLC <http://www.texifter.com/> Have you tried DiscoverText? http://discovertext.com *Featuring the Facebook Graph & Twitter APIs*