RE: [Air-l] Using Online Citations to Defunct Web Sites
Ken Friedman brings up an important, related issue to giving reference to online citations (first posted by Ed Lamoureux). What if the website itself IS the object of inquiry? I am just now finishing up research that investigated nine entire websites (not pages). I cannot possibly be required to print out every page in these sites in case someone wants to look at it 10, 20, 50 years from now, can I? As part of my research process and methodology, I downloaded the websites using WebCopier, and uploaded them on a local server. I did this more to prevent the sites from changing throughout the research process than to save them into all eternity. So, theoretically, I could point people to my local server address and ask them to look at the sites there (at least until I change university affiliation this summer, and who knows whether I'll "pack" these digital belongings and take them with me). And the original sites may have changed since I downloaded them! By definition, websites are dynamic documents. A screen shot or printout is just a momentary, Polaroid-like memorabilia. And in a way, so are my downloaded sites. If quoting text or a paragraph from an online document, I would strongly support Joe Walther's viewpoint (paraphrased) - to provide up-to-date specific reference, if at all possible. But if we're talking about whole pages or sites - I honestly don't know. Once I figure it out, I'll write a book and make big bucks from it ;) ulla ************************* Ulla K. Bunz University of Kansas 102 Bailey Lawrence, KS 66045 785-864-1160 ulla@ukans.edu ************************* -----Original Message----- From: jeremy hunsinger [] Subject: Re: [Air-l] Using Online Citations to Defunct Web Sites Ken Friedman wrote:
When the Web site itself is the object of inquiry, I print out images of the relevant pages.
while this is a tactic that one can use, I think it really is a waste of resources to a great extent. I do not support the effort of making personal copies of everything on the web that people use or cite. Memory is cheap, that is true, effort is not, parsing data and knowledge is not, etc. I'd much prefer to rely on large archives, and if something disappears, as things do, books disappear and so do articles, they get lost, they will either reappear eventually somewhere or they will be traces of what was. [snip]
the choice it seems to me is between maintaining your independent archive or relying on existing archives. I would do the latter, but I do know what I use to do the former(because other people have projects that I advised them about). I use the capture facility in adobe acrobat 4+ it captures the visual image, the links, etc, which you can then export the whole site to postscript. once it is in a standard language like postscript you are very safe for preserving it in the future on your own machine. However, any time that you do save something, it is important to also save something that can read it. There are for instance huge sections of netart that are very hard to access now because they were written in hypercard, there are files written in obscure wordprocessors that we will probably never be able to access again because most of the knowledge to read it has passed on. Bunz, Ulla K wrote:
Ken Friedman brings up an important, related issue to giving reference to online citations (first posted by Ed Lamoureux). What if the website itself IS the object of inquiry?
I am just now finishing up research that investigated nine entire websites (not pages). I cannot possibly be required to print out every page in these sites in case someone wants to look at it 10, 20, 50 years from now, can I?
As part of my research process and methodology, I downloaded the websites using WebCopier, and uploaded them on a local server. I did this more to prevent the sites from changing throughout the research process than to save them into all eternity. So, theoretically, I could point people to my local server address and ask them to look at the sites there (at least until I change university affiliation this summer, and who knows whether I'll "pack" these digital belongings and take them with me). And the original sites may have changed since I downloaded them! By definition, websites are dynamic documents. A screen shot or printout is just a momentary, Polaroid-like memorabilia. And in a way, so are my downloaded sites.
If quoting text or a paragraph from an online document, I would strongly support Joe Walther's viewpoint (paraphrased) - to provide up-to-date specific reference, if at all possible. But if we're talking about whole pages or sites - I honestly don't know.
Once I figure it out, I'll write a book and make big bucks from it ;) ulla ************************* Ulla K. Bunz University of Kansas 102 Bailey Lawrence, KS 66045 785-864-1160 ulla@ukans.edu *************************
-----Original Message----- From: jeremy hunsinger [] Subject: Re: [Air-l] Using Online Citations to Defunct Web Sites
Ken Friedman wrote:
When the Web site itself is the object of inquiry, I print out images of the relevant pages.
while this is a tactic that one can use, I think it really is a waste of resources to a great extent. I do not support the effort of making personal copies of everything on the web that people use or cite. Memory is cheap, that is true, effort is not, parsing data and knowledge is not, etc. I'd much prefer to rely on large archives, and if something disappears, as things do, books disappear and so do articles, they get lost, they will either reappear eventually somewhere or they will be traces of what was. [snip]
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Comments below: "Bunz, Ulla K" wrote:
them into all eternity. So, theoretically, I could point people to my local server address and ask them to look at the sites there (at least until I change university affiliation this summer, and who knows whether I'll "pack" these digital belongings and take them with me). And the original sites may have changed since I downloaded them! By definition, websites are dynamic documents. A screen shot or printout is just a momentary, Polaroid-like memorabilia. And in a way, so are my downloaded sites.
This raises a host of interesting copyright questions. Archiving a website for research purposes is probably not a violation. Redistributing reprints of it, without the original author's/poster's permission, is. Mirroring it locally, without permission, is. In this day and age, even "deep linking" can be considered copyright infringement. Gives one pause for a moment... --JW
John B. White wrote:
This raises a host of interesting copyright questions. Archiving a website for research purposes is probably not a violation. Redistributing reprints of it, without the original author's/poster's permission, is. Mirroring it locally, without permission, is. In this day and age, even "deep linking" can be considered copyright infringement.
I disagree (here and there) and I really worry about an increasing failure by researchers and academics to exercise the rights granted by the Fair Use provisions of the 1976 copyright revision. (I beg the indulgence, or simply the delete buttons, of our non-US colleagues who might well grow impatient with the following US-oriented discussion of copyright . . .or on second thought I beg their input -- what kinds of copyright exemptions are available on your turf?) Back to provincialism. US CODE Title 17, Section 107 reads, in part: the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. This suggests to me that there are many instances in which redistributing (note:but -- in general -- NOT selling) web printouts, or, for that matter, any other copyrighted works, would be fair uses. I would argue strenuously that while securing permission for (for example) redistribution of reprints of a web page circulated within a classroom is courteous, it is by no means required by current law, and that sane courts would shoo away a litigant pursuing damages for this sort of supposed "infringement." Further, others have argued that seeking permission for such uses perpetuates a culture in which the copyright cops have the upper hand and academic and critical discourse is ultimately stifled. I won't detail the four point test which accompanies (and potentially limits) the above-cited passage. It's available at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html for those who wish to review it. I'll simply say that a non-profit use, especially an academic use, which does not harm the potential market for a given work is almost certainly a fair use. This section's language, drafted with the input of academics, librarians and the major "creator's rights" group strikes a reasonable balance, and preserves safe spaces for critics, journalists, teachers, and researchers to do their work. But Fair Use will fade from both cyber and terrestrial spaces if honest and fair-minded people who depend on reasonable access to others' works fail to push back against the depredations of the copyright industries, who, emboldened by the crippling of Napster, are currently waging a disinformation campaign. Most of the questionable uses of copyrighted material on the Web have been blocked or stopped by injunctions, and there aren't yet many full-fledged court decisions speaking to Internet-based copyright "violations," so I would caution against flatly stating that a given would constitute a violation, especially because Congress has expressly avoided "bright line" distinctions such as the apocryphal "10% rule," which is often mistaken for law (y'know, the claim that you are free to use up to %10 of a given work). The four-point fair use test must be applied to every single "violation," and a use isn't a full-fledged violation until a court says it is. That having been said, there ARE uses that will, no doubt, flunk the four-point test and (if the copyright holders aren't asleep at the switch) prompt swift and substantial legal action. Scanning and posting the latest Stephen King novel to your University's webspace because you're asking your students to study it remains a very, very bad idea (from a legal standpoint, this isn't literary criticism). The uses contemplated above are far more reasonable, and might well pass the test with the right particulars. My hope is that when uses are fair and reasonable that they NOT be stifled by capitulation to the worst excesses of the copyright industries. To make a long diatribe short . . . know your rights, and use 'em or lose 'em. Best, John Logie Department of Rhetoric University of Minnesota --
participants (4)
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Bunz, Ulla K -
jeremy hunsinger -
John B. White -
Logie