Re: [Air-l] AoIR in Latin-America
No worries! People who speak in English are a minority in this world. The content in English on the Net is shrinking (relatively speaking) and so are the users for whom English is their first language. I guess it is time for Internet researchers to wake up to this new reality. Please read the basic statistics. We're spinning off those who speak English. It's not the other way round... Those who write in English are in the minority, big way. Let's not portray it otherwise. Geert On 20 Mar 2006, at 3:44 AM, Nathaniel Poor wrote:
I was thinking: "If we spin off the people who don't speak English.... who may not even be on the list in the first place... then we will have a more restricted view of the Internet..."
pero si, entiendo que es un problema con las idiomas del mundo... y ingles... y el internet... (but yes I understand that it's a problem with languages of the world... and English... on the net...) I also understand there is, currently, no easy answer to the issue of "we speak different languages but want to talk to each other" actually I had my undergrads read... something... from the "ferment in the field" edition (1980s?) of the Journal of Comm, that had a dialog where Ev Rogers was one of the people, and he, I think it was him (apologies if I am wrong), had an interesting point about language where he said, for instance, English-language researchers do get a lot of material to read, but at the same time a lot of it is translated, so, the example he used was the Japanese, the Japanese can get most of the English material in translated form, but Japanese work is rarely translated into English now I don't know if that was true then or even true now, but for me it was an interesting point about how language issues may not quite cut in expected ways
I feel that if we spin off non-English, then as you write there will never be any postings on the list in languages other than English! (but not like I am fluent in anything but English, my Spanish is not very good, and honestly I find my near mono-lingualism a problem) maybe it is chicken and egg...
but, now that I have a better understanding of how it might work I think it sounds like a solution worth trying Sue is going to be a "go-between", and perhaps some others will also be on both lists and can cross-post *and* translate that would be really cool.... so instead of creating different lists that are very separate, there can be communication! (my PhD is in Comm)
I am also glad the AIR conference is in different parts of the world, although that may only avoid American-centrism, but we are a young organization and these things take time (there is always ICA....)
On Mar 19, 2006, at 4:03 PM, geert lovink wrote:
hi, i was a bit surprised about your remark on the aior as the list and organization is so deeply anglo-centric. there are NEVER any postings on that list in languages other than english. so what does that 'regardless of language' means to you? there are hardly any lists, sites, blog or journals that are poly-lingual. best, geert
--------------------------------------------- Nathaniel Poor, Ph.D. www.umich.edu/~natpoor Visiting Assistant Professor Communication Studies Dept. Albion College http://www.albion.edu/commstudies
Geert, I think that's wishful thinking on your part. Global language usage is a function of political, economic, technological and cultural power. The English-speaking world (including ESL) has that in spades and shows no signs of giving it up, despite the rise of China (where they're studying English like crazy). The following is an extract from a Toronto Globe & Mail article no longer acessible without paying a fee. Noting the claim that English will add its millionth word sometime this year - David Crystal, a world authority on English, said any attempt to count the number of English words is futile, but he agreed that English has achieved international dominance and is growing faster than any other language. The reason, he said, is power. "That's the only reason languages spread: because of the power of the people who speak them," Prof. Crystal, editor of the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, said from North Wales. "Every significant cultural innovation of modern times - from the invention of the radio, to the Internet, to air traffic control - began in an English-speaking country or was immediately facilitated by an English-speaking country. It really is amazing." Today, an estimated 1.5 billion people speak English. A British study predicts the number of people studying the language will reach two billion within a decade. About 250 million people are now studying it in China alone. English has become the language of business and diplomacy, technology and popular culture, science and academic conferences. "Never has there been a language spoken by so many people as English," Prof. Crystal said. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060211.wxenglish0211/BN... Furthermore, you might want to look at the following UNESCO report on measuring Linguistic Diversity on the Internet: http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=20804&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTI... "Hundreds of local languages may be sidelined in the drive to bridge the digital divide because of technological oversight and political inertia, according to a new UNESCO publication entitled "Measuring Linguistic Diversity on the Internet". UNESCO is calling for new ways to monitor information societies which go beyond a techno-centric view to consider the social impact of the Internet. According to the new publication that was prepared under the auspices of the UNESCO Institute for Statistics, there are no accurate figures concerning language use on the Internet. For example, there have been claims that diversity is increasing because of soaring numbers of non-native English speakers (mostly Chinese). Indeed, it has been estimated only 36% of actual Internet users are anglophone. However, this is an estimate based upon other estimates produced largely by a marketing company. "Absent from the data is any kind of actual survey of Internet users," says the UIS publication. There is no indication of the language these people actually speak or use on the Internet." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The question of language usage on the Internet is complex and your dismissal of English language dominance is not supportable at this time (which is not to say that other major languages shouldn't be accommodated by the academic world)........Alex Kuskis ----- Original Message ----- From: "geert lovink" <geert@desk.nl> To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:49 AM Subject: Re: [Air-l] AoIR in Latin-America
No worries! People who speak in English are a minority in this world. The content in English on the Net is shrinking (relatively speaking) and so are the users for whom English is their first language. I guess it is time for Internet researchers to wake up to this new reality. Please read the basic statistics. We're spinning off those who speak English. It's not the other way round... Those who write in English are in the minority, big way. Let's not portray it otherwise.
Geert
On 20 Mar 2006, at 3:44 AM, Nathaniel Poor wrote:
I was thinking: "If we spin off the people who don't speak English.... who may not even be on the list in the first place... then we will have a more restricted view of the Internet..." ..............................[snip].........................................
Alex, Technically speaking, English is a minority. I don't think you can argue with Geert's assertion that (relatively speaking) the use of English online is shrinking exponentially. It's a much more multilingual arena than it was even a few years ago (and certainly the 'multilingual internet' is getting much more scholarly attention as of late because of this). Also, please don't misinterpret the statistic that 1.5 billion people speak English by thinking that these are monolingual and/or native speakers! Just because a speaker knows English doesn't mean they're going to use it in every context, and this applies both online and off. Joshua Joshua Raclaw - PhD student Department of Linguistics University of Colorado at Boulder Quoting Alex Kuskis <alex.kuskis@netscape.ca>: * Geert, * I think that's wishful thinking on your part. Global language usage * is a function of political, economic, technological and cultural * power. The English-speaking world (including ESL) has that in * spades and shows no signs of giving it up, despite the rise of * China (where they're studying English like crazy). The following * is an extract from a Toronto Globe & Mail article no longer acessible * without paying a fee. Noting the claim that English will add its * millionth word sometime this year - * * David Crystal, a world authority on English, said any attempt to count the * number of English words is futile, but he agreed that English has achieved * international dominance and is growing faster than any other language. * The reason, he said, is power. * "That's the only reason languages spread: because of the power of the people * who speak them," Prof. Crystal, editor of the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the * English Language, said from North Wales. * "Every significant cultural innovation of modern times - from the invention * of the radio, to the Internet, to air traffic control - began in an * English-speaking country or was immediately facilitated by an * English-speaking country. It really is amazing." * Today, an estimated 1.5 billion people speak English. A British study * predicts the number of people studying the language will reach two billion * within a decade. About 250 million people are now studying it in China * alone. English has become the language of business and diplomacy, technology * and popular culture, science and academic conferences. * "Never has there been a language spoken by so many people as English," Prof. * Crystal said. * http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060211.wxenglish0211/BN... ry/National/home * * Furthermore, you might want to look at the following UNESCO * report on measuring Linguistic Diversity on the Internet: * http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php- URL_ID=20804&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html * * "Hundreds of local languages may be sidelined in the drive to bridge * the digital divide because of technological oversight and political * inertia, according to a new UNESCO publication entitled "Measuring * Linguistic Diversity on the Internet". * * UNESCO is calling for new ways to monitor information societies which go * beyond a techno-centric view to consider the social impact of the Internet. * * According to the new publication that was prepared under the auspices of * the UNESCO Institute for Statistics, there are no accurate figures * concerning language use on the Internet. For example, there have been * claims that diversity is increasing because of soaring numbers of * non-native English speakers (mostly Chinese). Indeed, it has been * estimated only 36% of actual Internet users are anglophone. * * However, this is an estimate based upon other estimates produced largely * by a marketing company. "Absent from the data is any kind of actual * survey of Internet users," says the UIS publication. There is no * indication of the language these people actually speak or use on the * Internet." * ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - * The question of language usage on the Internet is complex and your * dismissal of English language dominance is not supportable at this * time (which is not to say that other major languages shouldn't be * accommodated by the academic world)........Alex Kuskis * * ----- Original Message ----- * From: "geert lovink" <geert@desk.nl> * To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> * Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:49 AM * Subject: Re: [Air-l] AoIR in Latin-America * * * > No worries! People who speak in English are a minority in this world. * > The content in English on the Net is shrinking (relatively speaking) * > and so are the users for whom English is their first language. I guess * > it is time for Internet researchers to wake up to this new reality. * > Please read the basic statistics. We're spinning off those who speak * > English. It's not the other way round... Those who write in English are * > in the minority, big way. Let's not portray it otherwise. * > * > Geert * > * > On 20 Mar 2006, at 3:44 AM, Nathaniel Poor wrote: * > * >> I was thinking: "If we spin off the people who don't speak English.... * >> who may not even be on the list in the first place... then we will * >> have a more restricted view of the Internet..." * ..............................[snip]......................................... * * _______________________________________________ * The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list * is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org * Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: * http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org * * Join the Association of Internet Researchers: * http://www.aoir.org/ *
Technically speaking, English is a minority........Joshua
That might be true from a strictly statistical point of view, Joshua, but English is a language that has lifted beyond its weight for several hundred years. Politically and economically this might be the result of one global English empire succeeding another one. But, just as important is the fact that both Industrial and Information Revolutions emerged from the English language world, and to the extent that technologies embody the assumptions of language and culture, modern ICT embodies Anglo-American thinking and values. That is why, as the Internet is consolidating almost everywhere, new high speed technologies variously alluded to as Web 2.0 and 3.0, the sematic Web, and Internet 2 are being rolled out from Silicon Valley, MIT, Bangalore, Waterloo (the Blackberry) and other English language domains. The Internet is not static, continues to evolve, mostly out of the English- speaking realm where it's so integrated with the culture, and the digital divide with the so-called Third World continues to increase. The downside of all this for the English-speaking world is that it reinforces mono-lingualism and language chauvinism. It's admirable to learn a language for love or curiosity, but the fact is that most people do it for economic advantage and up until recently, English speakers haven't had to. Wikipedia has a fairly good entry on 'English on the Internet', which is certainly debatable, but probably sound....Alex Kuskis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_on_the_Internet If a gradual decline in English first language users is inevitable it does not necessarily follow that English will not continue to be the language of choice for those accessing the Internet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the future then, English and Chinese may have roughly equal positions at the top of the overall Internet first language users but English will likely continue to dominate as the default choice for those accessing the Internet in a second language. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet content b.. Given the enormous lead it already enjoys and its increasing use as lingua franca in other spheres English web content may continue to dominate even as English first-language Internet users decline. This is a classic positive feedback loop: new Internet users find it helpful to learn English and employ it on-line, thus reinforcing the language's prestige and forcing subsequent new users to learn English as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "joshua raclaw" <Joshua.Raclaw@colorado.edu> To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Language on the Internet (was AoIR in Latin-America)
Alex,
Technically speaking, English is a minority. I don't think you can argue with Geert's assertion that (relatively speaking) the use of English online is shrinking exponentially. It's a much more multilingual arena than it was even a few years ago (and certainly the 'multilingual internet' is getting much more scholarly attention as of late because of this).
Also, please don't misinterpret the statistic that 1.5 billion people speak English by thinking that these are monolingual and/or native speakers! Just because a speaker knows English doesn't mean they're going to use it in every context, and this applies both online and off.
Joshua Joshua Raclaw - PhD student Department of Linguistics University of Colorado at Boulder
Alex, A strictly statistical view is what I was speaking from, actually :)
It's admirable to learn a language for love or curiosity, but the fact is that most people do it for economic advantage and up until recently, English speakers haven't had to.
I'm surprised at that last statement - I think you're completely discounting the fact that humans use language for purposes other than commerce, and that those purposes extend way beyond 'love or curiousity'. I'm not about to debate the status of English as a linguistic powerhouse, but I can't ignore what appears to be a rising trend for multilingualism on the internet. Frankly, I don't think it's 'wishful thinking' for anyone to do so. Joshua Joshua Raclaw - PhD student Department of Linguistics University of Colorado at Boulder http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~raclaw/ Quoting Alex Kuskis <alex.kuskis@netscape.ca>: * >Technically speaking, English is a minority........Joshua * * That might be true from a strictly statistical point of view, Joshua, * but English is a language that has lifted beyond its weight for * several hundred years. Politically and economically this * might be the result of one global English empire succeeding * another one. But, just as important is the fact that both Industrial * and Information Revolutions emerged from the English language * world, and to the extent that technologies embody the assumptions * of language and culture, modern ICT embodies Anglo-American * thinking and values. That is why, as the Internet is consolidating * almost everywhere, new high speed technologies variously alluded * to as Web 2.0 and 3.0, the sematic Web, and Internet 2 are being * rolled out from Silicon Valley, MIT, Bangalore, Waterloo (the * Blackberry) and other English language domains. The Internet * is not static, continues to evolve, mostly out of the English- * speaking realm where it's so integrated with the culture, and * the digital divide with the so-called Third World continues to * increase. The downside of all this for the English-speaking * world is that it reinforces mono-lingualism and language * chauvinism. It's admirable to learn a language for love or curiosity, * but the fact is that most people do it for economic advantage and * up until recently, English speakers haven't had to. * * Wikipedia has a fairly good entry on 'English on the Internet', * which is certainly debatable, but probably sound....Alex Kuskis * * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_on_the_Internet * If a gradual decline in English first language users is inevitable it does * not necessarily follow that English will not continue to be the language of * choice for those accessing the Internet. * ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * In the future then, English and Chinese may have roughly equal positions at * the top of the overall Internet first language users but English will likely * continue to dominate as the default choice for those accessing the Internet * in a second language. * ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Internet content * b.. Given the enormous lead it already enjoys and its increasing use as * lingua franca in other spheres English web content may continue to dominate * even as English first-language Internet users decline. This is a classic * positive feedback loop: new Internet users find it helpful to learn English * and employ it on-line, thus reinforcing the language's prestige and forcing * subsequent new users to learn English as well. * * ----- Original Message ----- * From: "joshua raclaw" <Joshua.Raclaw@colorado.edu> * To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> * Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:31 PM * Subject: Re: [Air-l] Language on the Internet (was AoIR in Latin-America) * * > Alex, * > * > Technically speaking, English is a minority. I don't think you can argue * > with * > Geert's assertion that (relatively speaking) the use of English online is * > shrinking exponentially. It's a much more multilingual arena than it was * > even * > a few years ago (and certainly the 'multilingual internet' is getting much * > more scholarly attention as of late because of this). * > * > Also, please don't misinterpret the statistic that 1.5 billion people * > speak * > English by thinking that these are monolingual and/or native speakers! * > Just * > because a speaker knows English doesn't mean they're going to use it in * > every * > context, and this applies both online and off. * > * > Joshua * > Joshua Raclaw - PhD student * > Department of Linguistics * > University of Colorado at Boulder * * _______________________________________________ * The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list * is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org * Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: * http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org * * Join the Association of Internet Researchers: * http://www.aoir.org/ *
here's a thought, just to throw it out there (since I find this conversation interesting) (although perhaps "English" is Western... not in terms of origin, but in other ways?) "English as a global language poses a most vexing problem precisely because it does not indicate any particular national culture. It is neither English nor British, neither North American nor Australian, neither South African nor Indian, neither Jamaican nor Singaporean, nor does it stand for anything like a cultural aggregate of all these. We simply have no idea what English stands for except the global market—itself a vague reference—which is to say, we have no idea what it stands for culturally." (p. 4) Judy, R. (1999). Some notes on the status of global English in Tunisia. boundary 2, 26(2), 3-29. On Mar 22, 2006, at 7:34 PM, Alex Kuskis wrote:
Technically speaking, English is a minority........Joshua
That might be true from a strictly statistical point of view, Joshua, but English is a language that has lifted beyond its weight for several hundred years. Politically and economically this might be the result of one global English empire succeeding another one. But, just as important is the fact that both Industrial and Information Revolutions emerged from the English language world, and to the extent that technologies embody the assumptions of language and culture, modern ICT embodies Anglo-American thinking and values. That is why, as the Internet is consolidating almost everywhere, new high speed technologies variously alluded to as Web 2.0 and 3.0, the sematic Web, and Internet 2 are being rolled out from Silicon Valley, MIT, Bangalore, Waterloo (the Blackberry) and other English language domains. The Internet is not static, continues to evolve, mostly out of the English- speaking realm where it's so integrated with the culture, and the digital divide with the so-called Third World continues to increase. The downside of all this for the English-speaking world is that it reinforces mono-lingualism and language chauvinism. It's admirable to learn a language for love or curiosity, but the fact is that most people do it for economic advantage and up until recently, English speakers haven't had to.
Wikipedia has a fairly good entry on 'English on the Internet', which is certainly debatable, but probably sound....Alex Kuskis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_on_the_Internet If a gradual decline in English first language users is inevitable it does not necessarily follow that English will not continue to be the language of choice for those accessing the Internet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ In the future then, English and Chinese may have roughly equal positions at the top of the overall Internet first language users but English will likely continue to dominate as the default choice for those accessing the Internet in a second language. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Internet content b.. Given the enormous lead it already enjoys and its increasing use as lingua franca in other spheres English web content may continue to dominate even as English first-language Internet users decline. This is a classic positive feedback loop: new Internet users find it helpful to learn English and employ it on-line, thus reinforcing the language's prestige and forcing subsequent new users to learn English as well.
----- Original Message ----- From: "joshua raclaw" <Joshua.Raclaw@colorado.edu> To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Language on the Internet (was AoIR in Latin- America)
Alex,
Technically speaking, English is a minority. I don't think you can argue with Geert's assertion that (relatively speaking) the use of English online is shrinking exponentially. It's a much more multilingual arena than it was even a few years ago (and certainly the 'multilingual internet' is getting much more scholarly attention as of late because of this).
Also, please don't misinterpret the statistic that 1.5 billion people speak English by thinking that these are monolingual and/or native speakers! Just because a speaker knows English doesn't mean they're going to use it in every context, and this applies both online and off.
Joshua Joshua Raclaw - PhD student Department of Linguistics University of Colorado at Boulder
_______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http:// listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
--------------------------------------------- Nathaniel Poor, Ph.D. www.umich.edu/~natpoor Visiting Assistant Professor Communication Studies Dept. Albion College http://www.albion.edu/commstudies
Alex, you just indicated why English speaker indeed should learn another language, or why it is not such a bad idea, despite the fact that all the others do speak some form of English... the reasons to learn a language go beyond love or curiosity... to speak or understand a language - not the same thing necessarily - also means to understand a culture, or is at least a gateway to begin to understand... language also transports meaning and culture.. "The Internet is not static, continues to evolve, mostly out of the English- speaking realm where it's so integrated with the culture, " if this is true for the Internet, then other languages may give a hint on how these adapt to this technology, how they see the world etc... also we all can communicate with English as a lingua franca, we may not understand the other rightly.. just a thought.... best nilz
The downside of all this for the English-speaking world is that it reinforces mono-lingualism and language chauvinism. It's admirable to learn a language for love or curiosity, but the fact is that most people do it for economic advantage and up until recently, English speakers haven't had to.
-- Dr. Nils Zurawski Universität Hamburg Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung Allende-Platz 1 20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.surveillance-studies.org
Nils, "You can never understand one language until you understand at least two." -Ronald Searle (1920- ) That quotation might be debatable. What is not is that the major languages, especially English, dispersed world wide via the Internet, are putting pressure on minority languages far more than previous electronic media such as TV (see below). So, it's not just a matter of language adaptation, but rather of survival. German will adapt and survive, as will other major languages like French and Spanish. They will be interesting case studies. But aboriginal languages worldwide are threatened, as are many in Africa and South America, which is a loss of cultural diversity (as suggested by the Safir quote someone posted). Yes, for better or worse, English has become the lingua franca, more so than Latin or French ever were.........Alex Kuskis Minority languages at risk: UNESCO Last Updated Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:54:11 EST CBC Arts More than half of the world's nearly 6,000 languages are in danger of disappearing, pushed aside by dominant languages such as English, UNESCO warned Tuesday. A group of linguistic specialists gathered in Paris Tuesday for a conference marking the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization's sixth annual International Mother Language Day. When a language dies, "it's a vision of the world that disappears," UNESCO director general Koichiro Matsuura said, according to Agence France-Presse. Delegates at the conference discussed new initiatives to protect linguistic diversity worldwide, including a plan for an Italian museum dedicated to languages and the elevating of the African Academy of Languages to a more significant role in the African Union. Participants, who included delegates from Europe, Africa and Latin America, shared stories about the difficulties faced by those who speak minority languages. Former Iceland president Vigdis Finnbogadottir, who led the country as its first female president from 1980 through 1996, also presented the 2005 Danish documentary In Languages We Live - Voices of the World, which examines the impact of disappearing languages through the stories of individuals. This year, the conference also looked at the specific issue of linguistic diversity on the internet. "It is not necessary that these [minority] languages disappear under the weight of others," said Musa Bin Jaafar Bin Hassan, president of the General Conference of UNESCO. "They should be means of expression that live and exist alongside the major languages of the world." http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2006/02/21/unesco-languages-disappear.... Alex, you just indicated why English speaker indeed should learn another language, or why it is not such a bad idea, despite the fact that all the others do speak some form of English... the reasons to learn a language go beyond love or curiosity... to speak or understand a language - not the same thing necessarily - also means to understand a culture, or is at least a gateway to begin to understand... language also transports meaning and culture.. "The Internet is not static, continues to evolve, mostly out of the English- speaking realm where it's so integrated with the culture, " if this is true for the Internet, then other languages may give a hint on how these adapt to this technology, how they see the world etc... also we all can communicate with English as a lingua franca, we may not understand the other rightly.. just a thought.... best nilz
The downside of all this for the English-speaking world is that it reinforces mono-lingualism and language chauvinism. It's admirable to learn a language for love or curiosity, but the fact is that most people do it for economic advantage and up until recently, English speakers haven't had to.
-- Dr. Nils Zurawski Universität Hamburg Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung Allende-Platz 1 20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.surveillance-studies.org
Alex, Are you suggesting that a spoken minority language might actually become endangered because it doesn't have an online presence? A vast majority of these minority languages don't even have a writing system. I'd be interested in any studies you've come across that specifically mention internet use as a factor in language loss (and I'm not sure that UNESCO article has anything to do with this idea). Joshua Joshua Raclaw - PhD student Department of Linguistics University of Colorado at Boulder Quoting Alex Kuskis <alex.kuskis@netscape.ca>: * Nils, * "You can never understand one language until you understand at least * two." -Ronald Searle (1920- ) * * * * That quotation might be debatable. What is not is that the major languages, * especially English, dispersed world wide via the Internet, are putting * pressure on minority languages far more than previous electronic media such * as TV (see below). So, it's not just a matter of language adaptation, but * rather of survival. German will adapt and survive, as will other major * languages like French and Spanish. They will be interesting case studies. * But aboriginal languages worldwide are threatened, as are many in Africa and * South America, which is a loss of cultural diversity (as suggested by the * Safir quote someone posted). Yes, for better or worse, English has become * the lingua franca, more so than Latin or French ever were.........Alex * Kuskis * * Minority languages at risk: UNESCO * Last Updated Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:54:11 EST * CBC Arts * More than half of the world's nearly 6,000 languages are in danger of * disappearing, pushed aside by dominant languages such as English, UNESCO * warned Tuesday. * A group of linguistic specialists gathered in Paris Tuesday for a conference * marking the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural * Organization's sixth annual International Mother Language Day. * When a language dies, "it's a vision of the world that disappears," UNESCO * director general Koichiro Matsuura said, according to Agence France-Presse. * Delegates at the conference discussed new initiatives to protect linguistic * diversity worldwide, including a plan for an Italian museum dedicated to * languages and the elevating of the African Academy of Languages to a more * significant role in the African Union. * Participants, who included delegates from Europe, Africa and Latin America, * shared stories about the difficulties faced by those who speak minority * languages. * Former Iceland president Vigdis Finnbogadottir, who led the country as its * first female president from 1980 through 1996, also presented the 2005 * Danish documentary In Languages We Live - Voices of the World, which * examines the impact of disappearing languages through the stories of * individuals. * This year, the conference also looked at the specific issue of linguistic * diversity on the internet. * "It is not necessary that these [minority] languages disappear under the * weight of others," said Musa Bin Jaafar Bin Hassan, president of the General * Conference of UNESCO. * "They should be means of expression that live and exist alongside the major * languages of the world." * http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2006/02/21/unesco-languages-disappear.... * * Alex, * you just indicated why English speaker indeed * should learn another language, or why it is not * such a bad idea, despite the fact that all the * others do speak some form of English... the * reasons to learn a language go beyond love or * curiosity... to speak or understand a language - * not the same thing necessarily - also means to * understand a culture, or is at least a gateway to * begin to understand... language also transports * meaning and culture.. * * "The Internet * is not static, continues to evolve, mostly out of the English- * speaking realm where it's so integrated with the culture, " * * if this is true for the Internet, then other * languages may give a hint on how these adapt to * this technology, how they see the world etc... * also we all can communicate with English as a * lingua franca, we may not understand the other * rightly.. * * just a thought.... * * best * nilz * * >The downside of all this for the English-speaking * >world is that it reinforces mono-lingualism and language * >chauvinism. It's admirable to learn a language for love or curiosity, * >but the fact is that most people do it for economic advantage and * >up until recently, English speakers haven't had to. * * -- * Dr. Nils Zurawski * Universität Hamburg * Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung * Allende-Platz 1 * 20146 Hamburg * Germany * tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 * fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 * * Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.surveillance-studies.org * * _______________________________________________ * The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list * is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org * Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: * http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org * * Join the Association of Internet Researchers: * http://www.aoir.org/ *
Joshua, This is not my major interest, so I cannot cite specific research off the top of my head. However I know that David Crystal is the authority here. He's written on both "Language Death" (2000) - see http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~jmatthew/articles/crystal.html- as well as "Language & the Internet" (2001): see http://dannyreviews.com/h/Language_Internet.html . I don't think I suggested that language endangerment necessarily derives from an absence on the Internet per se. I think that has more to do with cultural assimilation. However, intuitively I think that cultures are assimilated and their languages are lost when they're unable to participate in major media channels. I think that media in major languages are agents of assimilation, unless remote people can avoid contact with the outside world at all. In "Language & the Internet", Crystal writes about finding about 1,000 languages on the Net, at which point he stopped looking; the vast majority of "more frequently used languages" are represented, as are many minority ones. However, "Until a critical mass of Internet penetration in a country builds up, and a corresponding mass of content exists in the local language, the motivation to switch from English language sites will be limited..." (p. 220). And when there's no indigenous language presence on the Net at all, local users will only be able to access information in English or another language. This can only hasten the decline of indigenous languages. But, as far as local languages are concerned, Internet presence is a 2-edged sword. Aboriginal people, in developed countries at least, are increasingly gaining Net access. See for example the case of the First Nations of Northwestern Ontario in Canada: http://www.ci-journal.net/viewarticle.php?id=19&layout=html To the extent that they can produce their own content, which can be in video and sound form, since they have broadband access, the Internet will be boon for maintaining their languages. To the extent that they have to use the English or French of their host nation, there's potential for their ownlanguages to decline. It's a complicated topic without easy answers.....Alex Kuskis ----- Original Message ----- From: "joshua raclaw" <Joshua.Raclaw@colorado.edu> To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [Air-l] Language on the Internet (was AoIR in Latin-America) Alex, Are you suggesting that a spoken minority language might actually become endangered because it doesn't have an online presence? A vast majority of these minority languages don't even have a writing system. I'd be interested in any studies you've come across that specifically mention internet use as a factor in language loss (and I'm not sure that UNESCO article has anything to do with this idea). Joshua Joshua Raclaw - PhD student Department of Linguistics University of Colorado at Boulder Quoting Alex Kuskis <alex.kuskis@netscape.ca>: * Nils, * "You can never understand one language until you understand at least * two." -Ronald Searle (1920- ) * * That quotation might be debatable. What is not is that the major languages, * especially English, dispersed world wide via the Internet, are putting * pressure on minority languages far more than previous electronic media such * as TV (see below). So, it's not just a matter of language adaptation, but * rather of survival. German will adapt and survive, as will other major * languages like French and Spanish. They will be interesting case studies. * But aboriginal languages worldwide are threatened, as are many in Africa and * South America, which is a loss of cultural diversity (as suggested by the * Safir quote someone posted). Yes, for better or worse, English has become * the lingua franca, more so than Latin or French ever were.........Alex * Kuskis * * Minority languages at risk: UNESCO * Last Updated Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:54:11 EST * CBC Arts
Alex, I think that the reasons for language loss mentioned in much of the cultural and linguistic literature (which are probably way too off-topic to discuss on AoIR) are just a lot more relevant to speakers of minority languages at this moment than the need for getting information from the internet. Most of these majority languages will likely be moribund or extinct before this even becomes a notable factor. Also, Crystal never really discusses language death in the quote you've cited, only that there's no motivation to code-switch outside of English in cases where a speech community is underrepresented online. I'm certainly open to discussing this further off-list, if anyone is interested. Joshua Joshua Raclaw - PhD student Department of Linguistics University of Colorado at Boulder Quoting Alex Kuskis <alex.kuskis@netscape.ca>: * Joshua, * This is not my major interest, so I cannot cite specific research * off the top of my head. However I know that David Crystal is * the authority here. He's written on both "Language Death" (2000) - * see http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~jmatthew/articles/crystal.html- as * well as "Language & the Internet" (2001): see * http://dannyreviews.com/h/Language_Internet.html . * * I don't think I suggested that language endangerment necessarily derives * from an absence on the Internet per se. I think that has more to do with * cultural assimilation. However, intuitively I think that cultures are * assimilated and their languages are lost when they're unable to participate * in major media channels. I think that media in major languages are * agents of assimilation, unless remote people can avoid contact with the * outside world at all. In "Language & the Internet", Crystal writes about * finding about 1,000 languages on the Net, at which point he stopped * looking; the vast majority of "more frequently used languages" are * represented, as are many minority ones. However, "Until a critical * mass of Internet penetration in a country builds up, and a corresponding * mass of content exists in the local language, the motivation to switch * from English language sites will be limited..." (p. 220). And when * there's no indigenous language presence on the Net at all, local * users will only be able to access information in English or another * language. This can only hasten the decline of indigenous languages. * * But, as far as local languages are concerned, Internet presence is * a 2-edged sword. Aboriginal people, in developed countries at least, * are increasingly gaining Net access. See for example the case * of the First Nations of Northwestern Ontario in Canada: * http://www.ci-journal.net/viewarticle.php?id=19&layout=html * To the extent that they can produce their own content, which * can be in video and sound form, since they have broadband * access, the Internet will be boon for maintaining their languages. * To the extent that they have to use the English or French of their * host nation, there's potential for their ownlanguages to decline. * It's a complicated topic without easy answers.....Alex Kuskis * * ----- Original Message ----- * From: "joshua raclaw" <Joshua.Raclaw@colorado.edu> * To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> * Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 6:25 PM * Subject: Re: [Air-l] Language on the Internet (was AoIR in Latin-America) * * * Alex, * * Are you suggesting that a spoken minority language might actually become * endangered because it doesn't have an online presence? A vast majority of * these minority languages don't even have a writing system. * * I'd be interested in any studies you've come across that specifically * mention * internet use as a factor in language loss (and I'm not sure that UNESCO * article * has anything to do with this idea). * * Joshua * Joshua Raclaw - PhD student * Department of Linguistics * University of Colorado at Boulder * * Quoting Alex Kuskis <alex.kuskis@netscape.ca>: * * * Nils, * * "You can never understand one language until you understand at least * * two." -Ronald Searle (1920- ) * * * * That quotation might be debatable. What is not is that the major * languages, * * especially English, dispersed world wide via the Internet, are putting * * pressure on minority languages far more than previous electronic media * such * * as TV (see below). So, it's not just a matter of language adaptation, but * * rather of survival. German will adapt and survive, as will other major * * languages like French and Spanish. They will be interesting case studies. * * But aboriginal languages worldwide are threatened, as are many in Africa * and * * South America, which is a loss of cultural diversity (as suggested by the * * Safir quote someone posted). Yes, for better or worse, English has become * * the lingua franca, more so than Latin or French ever were.........Alex * * Kuskis * * * * Minority languages at risk: UNESCO * * Last Updated Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:54:11 EST * * CBC Arts * * _______________________________________________ * The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list * is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org * Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: * http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org * * Join the Association of Internet Researchers: * http://www.aoir.org/ *
participants (5)
-
Alex Kuskis -
geert lovink -
joshua raclaw -
Nathaniel Poor -
Nils Zurawski