Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
Hello, Jarek. Yes, hate is basically socially generated. However, it can also be strengthened or weakened in various ways. I am not sure whether I fully agree with you that "web sites only replicate the existing social divisions." I think they do more than that. I spend a lot of time researching websites related to Islam or anything Islamic. From all possible angles, both conservative ones, websites dealing with extremist militants calling for Jihad, reformist and secularist ones and even websites of people rejecting Islam. Now, if you take the extremes on both ends of this, the most violent Islamists and radical Islam-rejecters, these are groups that would have a hard time getting their message across in more traditional and conservative media. I do think the Internet itself is empowering such groups in a way that is significant, enabling them to spread their message to wider audiences. At the very least, the web is greatly facilitating social changes already underway. It may even be creating changes, even though I know many would reject such a view as technological determinism. This includes hate sites, such as those Islamic militant sites decsribed on the Internet Haganah. Just my 2 cents. Yous sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen. Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:21:00 -0800 From: "J. J." <japeks@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Message-ID: <BAY23-F37A0D77B14B2C3695B4C4CC9B90@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Peder, I think that "hate" is socially generated, cyberspace or not. The web sites only replicate the existing social divisions. I've checked the links you provided, and they don't help me understand the phenomenon of the “Islamic extremists” much. I am not sure if that can be understood without active participation of the other side either and those web sites don't seem to be inviting any such discussion. My point then is that cyberspace will provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the world outside of it. What do you think? Jarek
From: Peder Are Jensen <pajensen75@yahoo.no> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org To: air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:27:26 +0100 (CET)
From Peder Jensen, Master Student at the University of Oslo, Norway. Charles Ess mentioned searching for hate communities online. Have you tried looking at websites by Islamic extremists? You can track some of them through websites like these:
http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/
Yours sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
Many disconnects in there, Peder. Being able to spread a message wider does not mean *actually* spreading it wider, and neither necessarily means social change of any interesting variety or degree. Further, even if the web allows hitherto unheard extremes to spread their messages wider to such an extent that social change is engendered, that could still be simply a replication of existing social divisions. On the other hand, I don't understand Jarek's argument that "cyberspace will provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the world outside of it." I don't disagree; I'm simply not yet sure what it means. :) -eg
-----Original Message----- From: air-l-aoir.org-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-aoir.org-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Peder Are Jensen Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:31 AM To: air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
Hello, Jarek.
Yes, hate is basically socially generated. However, it can also be strengthened or weakened in various ways. I am not sure whether I fully agree with you that "web sites only replicate the existing social divisions." I think they do more than that. I spend a lot of time researching websites related to Islam or anything Islamic. From all possible angles, both conservative ones, websites dealing with extremist militants calling for Jihad, reformist and secularist ones and even websites of people rejecting Islam. Now, if you take the extremes on both ends of this, the most violent Islamists and radical Islam-rejecters, these are groups that would have a hard time getting their message across in more traditional and conservative media. I do think the Internet itself is empowering such groups in a way that is significant, enabling them to spread their message to wider audiences. At the very least, the web is greatly facilitating social changes already underway. It may even be creating changes, even though I know many would reject such a view as technological determinism. This includes hate sites, such as those Islamic militant sites decsribed on the Internet Haganah.
Just my 2 cents.
Yous sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:21:00 -0800 From: "J. J." <japeks@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Message-ID: <BAY23-F37A0D77B14B2C3695B4C4CC9B90@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Peder,
I think that "hate" is socially generated, cyberspace or not. The web sites only replicate the existing social divisions. I've checked the links you provided, and they don't help me understand the phenomenon of the “Islamic extremists” much. I am not sure if that can be understood without active participation of the other side either and those web sites don't seem to be inviting any such discussion. My point then is that cyberspace will provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the world outside of it. What do you think?
Jarek
From: Peder Are Jensen <pajensen75@yahoo.no> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org To: air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:27:26 +0100 (CET)
From Peder Jensen, Master Student at the University of Oslo, Norway. Charles Ess mentioned searching for hate communities online. Have you tried looking at websites by Islamic extremists? You can track some of them through websites like these:
http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/
Yours sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
_______________________________________________ The Air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://aoir.org/airjoin.html
Hi Ellis, Thanks to you and Peder for a good discussion. I think we are talking about the same thing here. I tried to point out the embedment of technology within the society. The way I see it, is that technologys development and use follow the socially generated inequalities. So while discussions thanks to the Internet do take place in cyberspace, these are still same discussions weve had for millennia: us vs. them, lets kill somebody because it will be good for us, our religion is the better religion etc So while the medium has changed, the content of human interactions hasnt. Therefore, I wrote that the Internet will only provide answers to questions asked outside of it. Does it make sense? Again, thanks for the time you took to respond to this. Jarek
From: "Ellis Godard" <egodard@csun.edu> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org, ellis.godard@csun.edu To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org>, <air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org> Subject: RE: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:42:31 -0800
Many disconnects in there, Peder. Being able to spread a message wider does not mean *actually* spreading it wider, and neither necessarily means social change of any interesting variety or degree. Further, even if the web allows hitherto unheard extremes to spread their messages wider to such an extent that social change is engendered, that could still be simply a replication of existing social divisions.
On the other hand, I don't understand Jarek's argument that "cyberspace will provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the world outside of it." I don't disagree; I'm simply not yet sure what it means. :)
-eg
-----Original Message----- From: air-l-aoir.org-bounces@listserv.aoir.org [mailto:air-l-aoir.org-bounces@listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf Of Peder Are Jensen Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:31 AM To: air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
Hello, Jarek.
Yes, hate is basically socially generated. However, it can also be strengthened or weakened in various ways. I am not sure whether I fully agree with you that "web sites only replicate the existing social divisions." I think they do more than that. I spend a lot of time researching websites related to Islam or anything Islamic. From all possible angles, both conservative ones, websites dealing with extremist militants calling for Jihad, reformist and secularist ones and even websites of people rejecting Islam. Now, if you take the extremes on both ends of this, the most violent Islamists and radical Islam-rejecters, these are groups that would have a hard time getting their message across in more traditional and conservative media. I do think the Internet itself is empowering such groups in a way that is significant, enabling them to spread their message to wider audiences. At the very least, the web is greatly facilitating social changes already underway. It may even be creating changes, even though I know many would reject such a view as technological determinism. This includes hate sites, such as those Islamic militant sites decsribed on the Internet Haganah.
Just my 2 cents.
Yous sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:21:00 -0800 From: "J. J." <japeks@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Message-ID: <BAY23-F37A0D77B14B2C3695B4C4CC9B90@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Peder,
I think that "hate" is socially generated, cyberspace or not. The web sites only replicate the existing social divisions. I've checked the links you provided, and they don't help me understand the phenomenon of the Islamic extremists much. I am not sure if that can be understood without active participation of the other side either and those web sites don't seem to be inviting any such discussion. My point then is that cyberspace will provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the world outside of it. What do you think?
Jarek
From: Peder Are Jensen <pajensen75@yahoo.no> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org To: air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org Subject: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online Hate Speech Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:27:26 +0100 (CET)
From Peder Jensen, Master Student at the University of Oslo, Norway. Charles Ess mentioned searching for hate communities online. Have you tried looking at websites by Islamic extremists? You can track some of them through websites like these:
http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/
Yours sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
_______________________________________________ The Air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://aoir.org/airjoin.html
_______________________________________________ The Air-l-aoir.org@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://aoir.org/airjoin.html
participants (3)
-
Ellis Godard -
J. J. -
Peder Are Jensen