Re: [Air-l] AoIR in Latin-America
hi, i was a bit surprised about your remark on the aior as the list and organization is so deeply anglo-centric. there are NEVER any postings on that list in languages other than english. so what does that 'regardless of language' means to you? there are hardly any lists, sites, blog or journals that are poly-lingual. best, geert
I was thinking: "If we spin off the people who don't speak English.... who may not even be on the list in the first place... then we will have a more restricted view of the Internet..." pero si, entiendo que es un problema con las idiomas del mundo... y ingles... y el internet... (but yes I understand that it's a problem with languages of the world... and English... on the net...) I also understand there is, currently, no easy answer to the issue of "we speak different languages but want to talk to each other" actually I had my undergrads read... something... from the "ferment in the field" edition (1980s?) of the Journal of Comm, that had a dialog where Ev Rogers was one of the people, and he, I think it was him (apologies if I am wrong), had an interesting point about language where he said, for instance, English-language researchers do get a lot of material to read, but at the same time a lot of it is translated, so, the example he used was the Japanese, the Japanese can get most of the English material in translated form, but Japanese work is rarely translated into English now I don't know if that was true then or even true now, but for me it was an interesting point about how language issues may not quite cut in expected ways I feel that if we spin off non-English, then as you write there will never be any postings on the list in languages other than English! (but not like I am fluent in anything but English, my Spanish is not very good, and honestly I find my near mono-lingualism a problem) maybe it is chicken and egg... but, now that I have a better understanding of how it might work I think it sounds like a solution worth trying Sue is going to be a "go-between", and perhaps some others will also be on both lists and can cross-post *and* translate that would be really cool.... so instead of creating different lists that are very separate, there can be communication! (my PhD is in Comm) I am also glad the AIR conference is in different parts of the world, although that may only avoid American-centrism, but we are a young organization and these things take time (there is always ICA....) On Mar 19, 2006, at 4:03 PM, geert lovink wrote:
hi, i was a bit surprised about your remark on the aior as the list and organization is so deeply anglo-centric. there are NEVER any postings on that list in languages other than english. so what does that 'regardless of language' means to you? there are hardly any lists, sites, blog or journals that are poly-lingual. best, geert
--------------------------------------------- Nathaniel Poor, Ph.D. www.umich.edu/~natpoor Visiting Assistant Professor Communication Studies Dept. Albion College http://www.albion.edu/commstudies
I'd be very interested in hearing opinions about language translating software in the context of academic writing. Free online examples include: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ And http://www.google.com/language_tools I tried the Babelfish translator on my homepage (http://charlie.balch.org). If you follow the link you'll see a control in the top right hand corner that allows translation of my page into a variety of languages. I know the translations are crude. In example, I've given students an assignment to write a message, translate it into another language, then round trip it back into English. The results are still readable if humorous. In example, here is the message above round-tripped through Spanish and Google: -- Message Round Tripped through Spanish -- Very it would be interested in opinions of the hearing on language that translates software in the context of the academic writing. The in line free examples include: http://babelfish.altavista.com http://www.google.com/language_tools I tried the translator of Babelfish in my homepage (http://charlie.balch.org). If you follow the connection you you will see a control in the superior right corner that allows the translation of my page in a variety of languages. I know that the translations are crude. In example, I have given to students an allocation to write a message, I translate it to another language, then around the trip he again within English. The results continue being legible if they are chistosos. In example, it is here with the message arrives round-shooting Spanish and Google
I concur Nathaniel, Although there may be a lot of problems with English-only approach we have no practical choice either. We use English because this is where the action is. The problem gets only more compounded by issues of culture and identity: non-English scholars may find themselves comparing their work to that of English-only audience and get very little in return. Those who read text translated from English in their native language, (not only Japanese, why would it be different in any other language?) may not always appreciate and seek value in their own neck of the woods following models from the English-speaking world, not always helpful and even less reflective of their own realities. Jarek Janio Santiago Canyon College Orange, California
From: Nathaniel Poor <natpoor@umich.edu> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org To: geert lovink <geert@desk.nl> CC: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-l] AoIR in Latin-America Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 21:44:50 -0500
I was thinking: "If we spin off the people who don't speak English.... who may not even be on the list in the first place... then we will have a more restricted view of the Internet..."
pero si, entiendo que es un problema con las idiomas del mundo... y ingles... y el internet... (but yes I understand that it's a problem with languages of the world... and English... on the net...) I also understand there is, currently, no easy answer to the issue of "we speak different languages but want to talk to each other" actually I had my undergrads read... something... from the "ferment in the field" edition (1980s?) of the Journal of Comm, that had a dialog where Ev Rogers was one of the people, and he, I think it was him (apologies if I am wrong), had an interesting point about language where he said, for instance, English-language researchers do get a lot of material to read, but at the same time a lot of it is translated, so, the example he used was the Japanese, the Japanese can get most of the English material in translated form, but Japanese work is rarely translated into English now I don't know if that was true then or even true now, but for me it was an interesting point about how language issues may not quite cut in expected ways
I feel that if we spin off non-English, then as you write there will never be any postings on the list in languages other than English! (but not like I am fluent in anything but English, my Spanish is not very good, and honestly I find my near mono-lingualism a problem) maybe it is chicken and egg...
but, now that I have a better understanding of how it might work I think it sounds like a solution worth trying Sue is going to be a "go-between", and perhaps some others will also be on both lists and can cross-post *and* translate that would be really cool.... so instead of creating different lists that are very separate, there can be communication! (my PhD is in Comm)
I am also glad the AIR conference is in different parts of the world, although that may only avoid American-centrism, but we are a young organization and these things take time (there is always ICA....)
On Mar 19, 2006, at 4:03 PM, geert lovink wrote:
hi, i was a bit surprised about your remark on the aior as the list and organization is so deeply anglo-centric. there are NEVER any postings on that list in languages other than english. so what does that 'regardless of language' means to you? there are hardly any lists, sites, blog or journals that are poly-lingual. best, geert
--------------------------------------------- Nathaniel Poor, Ph.D. www.umich.edu/~natpoor Visiting Assistant Professor Communication Studies Dept. Albion College http://www.albion.edu/commstudies
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Nathanial, Jerek ... all I think we need to use our collective imaginations on the language issue. If we just leave it to English we miss out on a feast of collective ideas and perspectives that different languages bring to the table. Also, most people (outside US and UK) speak more than one language, so it's not just a matter of either speaking in English or not. Most of us operate in two or more languages - the question is how/when do we manage to do both? We (a collection of bloggers) have been trying out a bi-lingual blogging experiment. Once a month you translate someone's blog in another language to your own. And anyone who's interested in joining in - please do. Here is some of the context of events leading to the Carnival of blog translations: I reflected about different ways people in Portugal blog in two languages: http://btrayner.blogspot.com/2006/02/bilingual-blogging-in-portugal.html This led me to make a suggestion for the BlogHer conference in US in July: http://blogher.org/node/2257 This led to a call to the "Blog translation carnival" by Liz Henry: http://literarytranslators.blogspot.com/2006/02/carnival-of-blog- translation.html And the first blog translation carnival took place on February the 28th, with Russian, French, English, Portuguese, Swedish, Bulgarian, and Spanish all represented: http://literarytranslators.blogspot.com/2006/02/first-carnival-of- blog-translation.html And the second carnival of blog translations will take place on March 28th. Fee free to join in. All the information you need is here: http://btrayner.blogspot.com/2006/03/call-to-second-carnival-of- blog.html Here's a toast to having fun in different languages, rather than feeling trapped by them! Um abraço a todos! Beverly Beverly Trayner Web page: http://btrayner.info Blog: http://btrayner.blogspot.com On Mar 20, 2006, at 3:21 AM, J. J. wrote:
I concur Nathaniel,
Although there may be a lot of problems with English-only approach we have no practical choice either. We use English because this is where the action is. The problem gets only more compounded by issues of culture and identity: non-English scholars may find themselves comparing their work to that of English-only audience and get very little in return. Those who read text translated from English in their native language, (not only Japanese, why would it be different in any other language?) may not always appreciate and seek value in their own neck of the woods following models from the English-speaking world, not always helpful and even less reflective of their own realities.
Jarek Janio Santiago Canyon College Orange, California
From: Nathaniel Poor <natpoor@umich.edu> Reply-To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org To: geert lovink <geert@desk.nl> CC: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-l] AoIR in Latin-America Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 21:44:50 -0500
I was thinking: "If we spin off the people who don't speak English.... who may not even be on the list in the first place... then we will have a more restricted view of the Internet..."
pero si, entiendo que es un problema con las idiomas del mundo... y ingles... y el internet... (but yes I understand that it's a problem with languages of the world... and English... on the net...) I also understand there is, currently, no easy answer to the issue of "we speak different languages but want to talk to each other" actually I had my undergrads read... something... from the "ferment in the field" edition (1980s?) of the Journal of Comm, that had a dialog where Ev Rogers was one of the people, and he, I think it was him (apologies if I am wrong), had an interesting point about language where he said, for instance, English-language researchers do get a lot of material to read, but at the same time a lot of it is translated, so, the example he used was the Japanese, the Japanese can get most of the English material in translated form, but Japanese work is rarely translated into English now I don't know if that was true then or even true now, but for me it was an interesting point about how language issues may not quite cut in expected ways
I feel that if we spin off non-English, then as you write there will never be any postings on the list in languages other than English! (but not like I am fluent in anything but English, my Spanish is not very good, and honestly I find my near mono-lingualism a problem) maybe it is chicken and egg...
but, now that I have a better understanding of how it might work I think it sounds like a solution worth trying Sue is going to be a "go-between", and perhaps some others will also be on both lists and can cross-post *and* translate that would be really cool.... so instead of creating different lists that are very separate, there can be communication! (my PhD is in Comm)
I am also glad the AIR conference is in different parts of the world, although that may only avoid American-centrism, but we are a young organization and these things take time (there is always ICA....)
On Mar 19, 2006, at 4:03 PM, geert lovink wrote:
hi, i was a bit surprised about your remark on the aior as the list and organization is so deeply anglo-centric. there are NEVER any postings on that list in languages other than english. so what does that 'regardless of language' means to you? there are hardly any lists, sites, blog or journals that are poly-lingual. best, geert
--------------------------------------------- Nathaniel Poor, Ph.D. www.umich.edu/~natpoor Visiting Assistant Professor Communication Studies Dept. Albion College http://www.albion.edu/commstudies
_______________________________________________ The air-l@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http:// aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
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Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/
No worries! People who speak in English are a minority in this world. The content in English on the Net is shrinking (relatively speaking) and so are the users for whom English is their first language. I guess it is time for Internet researchers to wake up to this new reality. Please read the basic statistics. We're spinning off those who speak English. It's not the other way round... Those who write in English are in the minority, big way. Let's not portray it otherwise. Geert On 20 Mar 2006, at 3:44 AM, Nathaniel Poor wrote:
I was thinking: "If we spin off the people who don't speak English.... who may not even be on the list in the first place... then we will have a more restricted view of the Internet..."
pero si, entiendo que es un problema con las idiomas del mundo... y ingles... y el internet... (but yes I understand that it's a problem with languages of the world... and English... on the net...) I also understand there is, currently, no easy answer to the issue of "we speak different languages but want to talk to each other" actually I had my undergrads read... something... from the "ferment in the field" edition (1980s?) of the Journal of Comm, that had a dialog where Ev Rogers was one of the people, and he, I think it was him (apologies if I am wrong), had an interesting point about language where he said, for instance, English-language researchers do get a lot of material to read, but at the same time a lot of it is translated, so, the example he used was the Japanese, the Japanese can get most of the English material in translated form, but Japanese work is rarely translated into English now I don't know if that was true then or even true now, but for me it was an interesting point about how language issues may not quite cut in expected ways
I feel that if we spin off non-English, then as you write there will never be any postings on the list in languages other than English! (but not like I am fluent in anything but English, my Spanish is not very good, and honestly I find my near mono-lingualism a problem) maybe it is chicken and egg...
but, now that I have a better understanding of how it might work I think it sounds like a solution worth trying Sue is going to be a "go-between", and perhaps some others will also be on both lists and can cross-post *and* translate that would be really cool.... so instead of creating different lists that are very separate, there can be communication! (my PhD is in Comm)
I am also glad the AIR conference is in different parts of the world, although that may only avoid American-centrism, but we are a young organization and these things take time (there is always ICA....)
On Mar 19, 2006, at 4:03 PM, geert lovink wrote:
hi, i was a bit surprised about your remark on the aior as the list and organization is so deeply anglo-centric. there are NEVER any postings on that list in languages other than english. so what does that 'regardless of language' means to you? there are hardly any lists, sites, blog or journals that are poly-lingual. best, geert
--------------------------------------------- Nathaniel Poor, Ph.D. www.umich.edu/~natpoor Visiting Assistant Professor Communication Studies Dept. Albion College http://www.albion.edu/commstudies
I go along with your argument - But... but as long as English is the language to tell the story - the main narratives - English as the lingua franca of discourses on and about INternet research - as long as - English will be important... and powerful - the language is defining the if somebody gets heard or not... it also has to do with power of publication, power of participation and so forth... English speakers - a minority or not - hold an important tool in their hands... that might change - but so far has not... this also might be worth considering - best nilz
No worries! People who speak in English are a minority in this world. The content in English on the Net is shrinking (relatively speaking) and so are the users for whom English is their first language. I guess it is time for Internet researchers to wake up to this new reality. Please read the basic statistics. We're spinning off those who speak English. It's not the other way round... Those who write in English are in the minority, big way. Let's not portray it otherwise.
Geert
-- Dr. Nils Zurawski Universität Hamburg Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung Allende-Platz 1 20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.surveillance-studies.org
Just two points here. I think you'll recall that we did attempt multi-linguality in Toronto, but in the end it did not work well. there are systemic barriers to multi-lingualism in the organizational context currently that are immense, the cost of translation for instance, live translation in toronto was as i recall priced at around $25k. it is priced that high because the groups that are required by law to afford it can afford that kind of money. I think we had looked at it in Maastricht too, also very highly priced. When the conference costs $70k, and people already complain about costs and prices, adding another $25k is not really an option. That is just a practical concern. After Toronto, the Association decided that the operating languages of the association is english. of course, any executive committee in the future could change that, but it really was just a pragmatic decision. my argument has been, and will tend to be that AoIR has to serve the majority of its population, when that switches from an English commonality to a different commonality, then I think we should change our language. The other thing to remember is that while in the world, those who write in english are a minority, in academia, in most disciplines in the world, the majority of publishing is in english (though this is changing pretty quickly and the major publishing houses want more of the Asian market). so who is spinning off who, and what is derivative of what is a great question for the internet's and aoir's future, because while the hegemonic discourses are being transformed, academic cultures tend to move a bit slower... On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:49 AM, geert lovink wrote:
No worries! People who speak in English are a minority in this world. The content in English on the Net is shrinking (relatively speaking) and so are the users for whom English is their first language. I guess it is time for Internet researchers to wake up to this new reality. Please read the basic statistics. We're spinning off those who speak English. It's not the other way round... Those who write in English are in the minority, big way. Let's not portray it otherwise.
Geert
Jeremy Hunsinger Center for Digital Discourse and Culture () ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail /\ - against microsoft attachments http://www.aoir.org The Association of Internet Researchers http://www.stswiki.org/ stswiki http://cfp.learning-inquiry.info/ LI-the journal
In my recollection the inclusion of French presenters in Toronto worked reasonably well, given the association's executive attempts to subvert the bilingual French and English presentations they had initially agreed to. As a member of the Toronto organizing committee, I recall that we felt it important for AIR to grow internationally by recognizing the bilingual nature of their Canadian conference host country. With the help of people like David Mitchell, former editor of the Canadian Journal of Communication, we secured Canadian government funding for translation services and the call for papers was duly issued in French and English. There were a sufficent number of French-speaking scholars to assess French-language proposals. Cyber-philosopher Pierre Levy was secured to present one of the keynotes and all seemed well with the world. Then, a few months before the conference, the Toronto organizers were instructed by the AIR executive to cancel the French sessions and return the government funding offered for translation purposes. The Toronto conference chair refused and was deposed by the executive group, who installed a number of recently-involved locals more amenable to their wishes. Needless to say, those of us who had worked on the conference for 2 years were devastated, but managed to get the French sessions held anyway by arranging for set-up and support. The Francophone scholars who were aware of what had happened were upset, but thanked the deposed organizers. This heavy-handedness caused considerable bad feeling and set back AIR in this part of Canada, where several people have expressed a disinclination to be members until AIR becomes more than tokenly international. I air this dirty laundry now (pun intended) because of our Vancouver colleagues expressed desire to hold the conference, the discussions about AIR in Latin America, and language on the Internet. Now, I would never expect my native language of Latvian to be accommodated by AIR (nor the Croatian that someone mentioned), but when the conference is held in countries where major world languages such as Spanish or French are spoken, and when local organizers are willing to go the extra distance to secure funding, translation and organization, leaving it to the executive to just show up, why would the association continue to insist on its anglo-centrism? The executive who decided that English was to be the association's working language in all matters was almost all-American, and all English-speaking, except for one token member. Is that reflective of an association that purports to be international? ......................Alex Kuskis *********************** e-Scholars.ca Online Adjunct Professor, Communication Studies, Gonzaga U, Royal Roads U alex.kuskis@netscape.ca alex.kuskis@utoronto.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Hunsinger" <jhuns@vt.edu> To: <air-l@listserv.aoir.org> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [Air-l] AoIR in Latin-America
Just two points here. I think you'll recall that we did attempt multi-linguality in Toronto, but in the end it did not work well. there are systemic barriers to multi-lingualism in the organizational context currently that are immense, the cost of translation for instance, live translation in toronto was as i recall priced at around $25k. it is priced that high because the groups that are required by law to afford it can afford that kind of money. I think we had looked at it in Maastricht too, also very highly priced. When the conference costs $70k, and people already complain about costs and prices, adding another $25k is not really an option. That is just a practical concern. After Toronto, the Association decided that the operating languages of the association is english. of course, any executive committee in the future could change that, but it really was just a pragmatic decision. my argument has been, and will tend to be that AoIR has to serve the majority of its population, when that switches from an English commonality to a different commonality, then I think we should change our language.
The other thing to remember is that while in the world, those who write in english are a minority, in academia, in most disciplines in the world, the majority of publishing is in english (though this is changing pretty quickly and the major publishing houses want more of the Asian market).
so who is spinning off who, and what is derivative of what is a great question for the internet's and aoir's future, because while the hegemonic discourses are being transformed, academic cultures tend to move a bit slower...
On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:49 AM, geert lovink wrote:
No worries! People who speak in English are a minority in this world. The content in English on the Net is shrinking (relatively speaking) and so are the users for whom English is their first language. I guess it is time for Internet researchers to wake up to this new reality. Please read the basic statistics. We're spinning off those who speak English. It's not the other way round... Those who write in English are in the minority, big way. Let's not portray it otherwise.
Geert
participants (8)
-
Alex Kuskis -
Beverly Trayner -
Charlie Balch -
geert lovink -
J. J. -
Jeremy Hunsinger -
Nathaniel Poor -
Nils Zurawski