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Re: [Air-l]RE: [Air-l] Re: first post (An Internet without Space)
by Jonathan Marshall 08 Feb '04

08 Feb '04

I'd like to add that Edward Casey's *Fate of Place* is also a stimulating set of reflections and history of the concepts involved, Kevin Tharp <k.tharp(a)cqu.edu.au> writes: > Regarding the place - space conversation, a question comes to my > mind. When we invest of ourselves in cyberspaces or cyberplaces, > are we investing in the space/place, or are we investing in the > people that occupy that space/place. I'd say we are investing in what we can do as well. That clearly involves the people, but it also involves the demands of offline life, the way it fits in with our online activities and so on. It is possible certain structures of online forums might facilitate different kinds of actions, different kinds of interactions etc. They m ight also attract different kinds of people. Thus giving the feel of different kinds of space or place. And it would be the ability to make the comparisons between forums, and sites and what they enable, which make them seem like different kinds of 'locale' (to use the term I prefer :), to an extent which is not the case with 'phone space' or 'TV space' where only a limited set of relatively uniform actitons are possible. > As a researcher/practitioner > in the development of cyber**aces that can encourage and support > the interaction between the people of a geographic locality, it > seems to me that an understanding of such things lies in the > perceptions of the people that appropriate them as part of their > lives. So yes, if its a community forum that we are thinking of, then the way this enables actions in the community is really important. otherwise people will continue to use the old channels for many things - if not everything. The old channels will support old power networks for one. If the community computer network becomes a local business spam channel for example it will probably be abandoned pretty quickly - at least more quickly than a bushfire or flood alert channel might be. So there are issues of power to begin with. The network is never 'pure'. > Similar to the concept of community (dare I use such word in > educated company), it is not the infrastructure that makes the > community, it is the people that make the community. The > community is then supported by the infrastructure. I'd suggest that the infrastructure is not quite that passive. The infra structure allows certain types of community to form, and is in turn shaped by the politics of that community and may reinforce those politics. The more permanent the structure the more it enstructures. But even a permanent shifting structure enables certain behaviours more than others. These structures can then largely determine who interacts with who and thus which people ally with each other, which people compete with each other, which people become the pivital points of communication, which people get defined as outsiders, criminals or heretics and so on. jon UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER ======================================================================== This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. ========================================================================

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my second post
by Jonathan Marshall 07 Feb '04

07 Feb '04

my computer froze in the middle of this so apologies if you end up with two copies. These are all interesting figures but it would help to find out the usual distributiton of words in the English Language. I suspect that 'help' is a much commoner word than cyberspace. Certainly in my daily life I'd use it a lot more frequently. So the search results may have nothing to do with web pages looking for help or offering help - although i'd expect there would be a fair number of these as co-operation is important to humans - something often forgotten in our political world. Most requests for help would, I suspect, be invisible to google - being in non searchable lists or newsgroups etc. We would expect that analysts might use different terms to the ones people employ in daily life - think of physics for example. So the difference in frequency is not unsuprising and might even be healthy. Also somethings tend to be much more problematic and have an analytic tradition behind them which makes them more visible and easier to deal with. That said I'd say that studies of online co-operation needed to be done as do studies on the role of Religion online. I'd expect that when Religion arises it would be as 'disruptive' as gender, politics and race. 'Online Business' would seem to have so much written about it from a supposedly practical point of view - many bookshops seem to carry little else in their 'cyberculture' sections - that I find it surprising there is little analysing it. Perhaps the problem is that the audience for that only really want to hear one kind of thing. As well it is really hard to get businesses to give open and honest information about the way things actually work - as it sends messages to their competitors. Anyway: I'm going to try and write a paper soon about the ways that people collaborate on a mailing list, primarily focusing on a group effort to write a novel, but also looking at more incidental things. By the by the novel, in case people are interested in cyberpunk-fantasy-new-age-airport-trash meets the Cthulhu mythos and Internet theory, is at: http://www.geocities.com/jpmarshall.geo/cybermind/novel/novel.html Some people hate it, some really like it :) jon Eero Tarik <et(a)tarik.com.au> wrote: > a Google search reveals that the term "cyberspace" appears > 2.4million > times in the online world. > Identity appears 14 million times, gender 15 million times, > politics 26 > million and race 32 million. > > God appears 64 million times and love gets 119 million mentions - > far > more important to "cyberspacers" than food, which is only > mentioned 86 > million times. > > Interestingly, the internet produces 244 million results, but lags > behind good old "sex" with 269 million and business with 266 million.. > > And at the top of my little list is the search term, "help" which > comes > in with 301 million results. > > When I look at the kind of subject matter that appears to be the > focus > of internet researchers I am dismayed that so much of the > intellectual > effort seems to be directed at the small end of town. There > appears to > be an over emphasis upon cyberspace and cyberism, along with > identity, > gender, race and politics. > > A search of the titles of the papers presented to last years > conference > shows that 11 contained the term cyberspace, 32 contained the term > identity, 12 contained gender, and 2 contained race - none > contained > the term "help". > > The online world, it seems, is screaming out for help - 301million > times, yet academia appears to want to talk about minority issues. > > The online world wants help, sex and business - academia gives it > cyberspace and discussion of race, gender and politics. > > Am I missing something??? > > Dont you just love numbers :-) > > see ya > Eero Tarik > Adelaide, South Australia > > UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER ======================================================================== This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. ========================================================================

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possible panel/bof/roundtable on space
by Nils Zurawski 06 Feb '04

06 Feb '04

>A bof might be okay, but I think this warrants a slot on the program and >would like to see it done that way. Lori, as I remember the blog bof had separate slots... I do not know the procedure for that.. would we have to wrtie a proposal for that or would that be only organisational?ß Whom should we approach?? nilz -- Dr. Nils Zurawski Universität Hamburg Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung Allendeplatz 1 20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/zurawski/ueberwachung

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space and place
by Barry Wellman 06 Feb '04

06 Feb '04

Great discussion on (cyber)space. The paper below of mine links it to longterm discussions in community sociology of space and place. I really like this article, if I do say so myself. Barry Wellman, "Physical Place and Cyber Place: The Rise of Networked Individualism." International Journal of Urban and Regional Research 25,2 (June, 2001): 227-52. PS: Nancy Baym discussed the Copher finding, "the more (online), the more offline" in Wellman-Haythornthwaite's Internet in Everyday Life. same finding appears in Quan, et al and Boase, Chen & Wellman, altho we didn't select articles on that basis. Pew studies find the same thing. As does Castells, et al in Catalonia. Bernie Hogan finds a softer version: Internet use doesn't seem to lower other forms of communication (ASA conf, last August). I am starting to think this is a reliable finding, at least in the soft version. Barry, Idiot Clown Professor, among other things _____________________________________________________________________ Barry Wellman Professor of Sociology NetLab Director wellman at chass.utoronto.ca http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~wellman Centre for Urban & Community Studies University of Toronto 455 Spadina Avenue Toronto Canada M5S 2G8 fax:+1-416-978-7162 To network is to live; to live is to network _____________________________________________________________________

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Re: [Air-l] space
by andrew.herman＠comcast.net 05 Feb '04

05 Feb '04

Sounds great--shall I organize a panel to gestate articles for the special issue? -- Visiting Professor and Research Fellow in Digital Communications and Cultural Policy Joint Graduate Program in Communication and Culture York University 4700 Keele St.TEL 3007 Toronto, Ontario M3J 1P3 (416)736-2100 x 30157 > _Space and Culture_ would welcome proposals for a special issue on > this "Space" thread (since there seems to be much interest). Please > contact me offlist. See link to the journal below. > > Greg > -- > Greg Elmer > Associate Professor > Department of Communication > Florida State University > 356 Diffenbaugh > Tallahassee, FL > 32303 > 850.645.4692 (tel.) > > Co-Editor > Space and Culture: An International Journal of Social Spaces > http://www.carleton.ca/space/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Air-l mailing list > Air-l(a)aoir.org > http://www.aoir.org/mailman/listinfo/air-l

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Re: [Air-l] Re: first post (An Internet Without Space)
by Irene Berkowitz 05 Feb '04

05 Feb '04

I am writing about space, however, I disagree that it's An Internet Without Space, but rather a reconceived space. Irene Berkowitz Director Curricular Publications Office of the Vice Provost Temple University tel. 215-204-7596 fax. 215-204 3175 My new email address is irene.berkowitz(a)temple.edu. Please update your address books to reflect this change. >>> welshwitch75(a)rogers.com 02/05/2004 10:39:01 AM >>> Hi all: I also write about issues of space but, alas, have no time to add much beyond names to Phillip's list: Michel Foucault on the heterotopia, specifically, (1986). Of other spaces. diacritics, 16(1), 22-27. Kevin Hetherington's work on the heterotopia, although not about cyberspace, is useful as well: (1997). The badlands of modernity: Heterotopia and social ordering. New York: Routledge. Finally, Doreen Massey for a feminist perspective: (1994). Space, place, and gender. Cambridge: Polity Press. Rhiannon > _______________________________________________ Air-l mailing list Air-l(a)aoir.org http://www.aoir.org/mailman/listinfo/air-l

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An Internet Without Space
by Michele White 05 Feb '04

05 Feb '04

Dear Colleagues, This sounds wonderful. Thanks to Andrew for offering to organize such an endeavor. I would be happy to participate in a roundtable. Are we even having pre-conference workshops at the next AoIR conference? I am already committed to an organized panel and believe that this would prevent me from speaking on another paper-oriented panel. All my best, Michele

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RE: [Air-l] An Internet Without Space
by Kendall, Lori 05 Feb '04

05 Feb '04

A bof might be okay, but I think this warrants a slot on the program and would like to see it done that way. -----Original Message----- From: Nils Zurawski [mailto:nils.zurawski@uni-hamburg.de] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:28 AM To: air-l(a)aoir.org Subject: RE: [Air-l] An Internet Without Space Could there be an open format, that we can arrange informally.. what about the bof meetings on blogs last year... would it be possible to get some "space" for that in Sussex?? nilz >....s that the opening presentations were >actually a bit too long, even at only 10 minutes apiece or so. Since most >people will have seen this exchange (and maybe it would be possible even to >encourage people to read it beforehand if not?), I would encourage even >shorter opening statements or facilitating questions, and then open >discussion. -- Dr. Nils Zurawski Universität Hamburg Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung Allendeplatz 1 20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/zurawski/ueberwachung _______________________________________________ Air-l mailing list Air-l(a)aoir.org http://www.aoir.org/mailman/listinfo/air-l

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RE: [Air-l] An Internet Without Space
by Nils Zurawski 05 Feb '04

05 Feb '04

Could there be an open format, that we can arrange informally.. what about the bof meetings on blogs last year... would it be possible to get some "space" for that in Sussex?? nilz >....s that the opening presentations were >actually a bit too long, even at only 10 minutes apiece or so. Since most >people will have seen this exchange (and maybe it would be possible even to >encourage people to read it beforehand if not?), I would encourage even >shorter opening statements or facilitating questions, and then open >discussion. -- Dr. Nils Zurawski Universität Hamburg Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung Allendeplatz 1 20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/zurawski/ueberwachung

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RE: [Air-l] An Internet Without Space
by Kendall, Lori 05 Feb '04

05 Feb '04

I agree that a very open format (not formal presentations) would be very good for this topic. I've been enjoying the freewheeling discussion so far; why not continue it? I went to a very good session in Toronto that used this format, and the only problem was that the opening presentations were actually a bit too long, even at only 10 minutes apiece or so. Since most people will have seen this exchange (and maybe it would be possible even to encourage people to read it beforehand if not?), I would encourage even shorter opening statements or facilitating questions, and then open discussion. Lori -----Original Message----- From: Nils Zurawski [mailto:nils.zurawski@uni-hamburg.de] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 7:44 AM To: air-l(a)aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-l] An Internet Without Space >Friends- > >I think this is a great idea--but why not do a panel or two at the >conference on this issue (not that I don't think the pre-conference >workshop is a bad idea). I'd be willingto organize one. Would you >be interested Michelle? > >AH > I second that. But why not make it a roundtable, with some ideas presented or statements and then open a discussion, which - taking from this debate - should be quite good... Forms like that have been proven quite successful in terms of participation and outcome.... best nilz -- Dr. Nils Zurawski Universität Hamburg Inst. für kriminologische Sozialforschung Allendeplatz 1 20146 Hamburg Germany tel. +49 (0) 40 42838 6185 fax. +49 (0) 40 42838 2328 Projekt zu Videoüberwachung: http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/zurawski/ueberwachung _______________________________________________ Air-l mailing list Air-l(a)aoir.org http://www.aoir.org/mailman/listinfo/air-l

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