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RE: [Air-l] Re: first post (An Internet Without Space)
by Slater,D 18 Feb '04

18 Feb '04

That's a problem to get our teeth into. My own feeling is that we've got false alternatives here: it's not a matter of either imposing northern theory on 'them' or else taking their accounts as 'truth'. I tend to think of ethnography as dialogic (or even dialectical) - as in Gadamer's 'fusion of horizons'. I've never been able to articulate it very well, but as Rhiannon says, we as researchers are always part of the frame, trying to understand the people we are talking with, and hoping to make that understanding mnore and more sensitive and complete, but we never escape ourselves, nor should we. At best, the ethnographic encounter - like any really intense conversation - shakes us up and changes us (and in some cases, 'them' too). You *respond* to experiences, you don't accept them at face value. (though I'll confess that I've often found my biggest problem is indeed getting overenthusiastic about the people I study) I'm not sure whether or not I would call myself a poststructuralist. What I do know is that I have lived and developed my ideas during the era of poststructuralist thought and in dialogue with it. You could simply say I've learned from it, in the sense that you develop your ideas in a context, in discussions. Same goes for my conversations in Ghanaian households or chatrooms or whatever. I'm also quite comfortable to disagree with the people I research, or think they are wrong, or that they are doing something other than what they think they are doing. After all ethnography is not interviews. It cannot be ethnography until what people say and what they do, and the tensions between the two, are brought within the same frame (not to prove them liars or deluded, but to flesh out *practice* in toto). Moreover, I've always felt it was a mark of deeper respect for people to believe that everyone is intelligent and autonomous enough to be argued with, and to believe that they can be wrong! I hope they treat me that way too. Just one other thought along these lines - my last few projects have all involved working with local researchers. Their job is very difficult as they are both part of the 'community' and at the same distanced (often by class and education, but mainly by the stance required by the research). Ethnographyt is definitely a dialectic of closeness and distance, and while I am worried by my distance, they are actually plagued by their closeness. I've come out of this feeling that there is a lot to be said about the older anthropology of strangers coming to learn a culture (given plenty of safeguards around issues of power, etc). Anyway, I'm mainly trying to say that I agree with Rhiannon, except in seeing all this in terms of alternatives rather than a rather unstable dialogue. Don _______________________________________________ Don Slater Reader in Sociology, London School of Economics Houghton Street, London WC2A 2AE Tel: +44 (020) 7849 4653 Fax: +44 (020) 7955 7405 http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/slater ______________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Rhiannon Bury [mailto:welshwitch75@rogers.com] Sent: 12 February 2004 15:11 To: air-l(a)aoir.org Subject: Re: [Air-l] Re: first post (An Internet Without Space) I too enjoyed Don's thought-provoking post and wholeheartedly agree with the main point that we can't just come up with theories about "cyberspace" with no context of use (1990s "cyberbabble", heheh, I've have to remember that one). That said, I'm uncomfortable what seems to be the resurrection of the old theory/practice binary. Like Lori and Radhika, I do ethnographic work, but I'm also a poststructuralist. I certainly understand Don's concerns about imposing "northern strands" (I think those were his words) of theories in non-western contexts. But, what is the alternative? Taking participants' experiences and accounts as unadulterated "truth" that we have "discovered" through our research? Our own stories and that includes our theories, are always part of the frame. As Deborah Britzman say, ethnographic accounts are "overinvested in second hand memories." As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I use Foucault's conceptualization of the heterotopia. It was my data that led to me to work with this notion, not the other way around. Yet, the participants would not necessarily describe their "spaces" as heterotopic and might think it's just a bunch of academic whooey for all I know (but just be too polite to say so.) Rhiannon radhika_gajjala wrote: > ditto. > > (I may even take this rant to my research methods class;-)) > > r > > At 2:44 PM -0500 2/11/04, Kendall, Lori wrote: > >> Woo! I greatly enjoyed Don Slater's post on this issue and >> particularly the >> rant about ethnography. (No big surprise to anyone who knows me, I'm >> sure!) >> >> Lori >> ________________________________________ >> Lori Kendall >> Assistant Professor of Sociology >> Purchase College-SUNY >> lori.kendall(a)purchase.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Air-l mailing list >> Air-l(a)aoir.org >> http://www.aoir.org/mailman/listinfo/air-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Air-l mailing list > Air-l(a)aoir.org > http://www.aoir.org/mailman/listinfo/air-l > _______________________________________________ Air-l mailing list Air-l(a)aoir.org http://www.aoir.org/mailman/listinfo/air-l

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My first survey
by Eero Tarik 18 Feb '04

18 Feb '04

Dear AIR people, to get a break from all the theory and assignments I have decided to create my first Internet Research project, an online survey. This project has nothing to do with the units I am presently studying, but I thought it would be a useful break to do something practical. It is my first experience using php (I had to give myself a crash 24 hour course in php code), so for those who are experts in this area there are still behind the scenes issues I am trying to work out - like security and to prevent people using the survey from outside my domain. According to my web hosts I am on a Linux server and therefore couldnt use an Access database nor could I use MySQL without coughing up more money. As a result of these limitations I have chosen to send the data by email to myself as well as loading it into a text file on my server and this is then loaded into a spreadsheet for analysis. A few hundred people have used it so far and the results are already interesting. It has only been tested on Windows machines and using IE and Netscape so far. If any of you experience difficulties using other equipment and software I'd be happy to hear from you. So if you would care to attempt my first online research survey please feel free to give it a try and offer your opinions. And if you'd like to send all of your students along as well, the more the merrier :-) the address is... http://www.tarik.com.au/university/forms/LIUS.html Whilst some might consider the question to be frivolous, to me, its important. regards, Eero Tarik Adelaide

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Re: [Air-l] Re: [CITASA] origin of gibson quote
by Barry Wellman 17 Feb '04

17 Feb '04

Folks, The Gibson quote hunt is mostly over. Ren Reynolds and Ellen Pozzi both pointed me to an NPR Talk of The Town (US radio) broadcast in which William Gibson uttered the following sentence: "As I've said many times, the future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed." This is hard. This exists. It is citable. However, note the "As I've said many times,..." which means there should be earlier citations. Although I've stopped looking. Here's the coordinates as supplied by Ren: NPR Talk of the Nation 30 November 1999 Timecode: 11min 55sec Link: discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1067220 I found a different URL, from Ellen's info: www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgld=5&prgDate=30-Nov-1999 Thanks to all those who contributed to the treasure hunt, even those who insisted on the false Economist leads. (Economist was just attributing to Gibson himself, without interviewing WG). Barry _____________________________________________________________________ Barry Wellman Professor of Sociology NetLab Director wellman at chass.utoronto.ca http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~wellman Centre for Urban & Community Studies University of Toronto 455 Spadina Avenue Toronto Canada M5S 2G8 fax:+1-416-978-7162 To network is to live; to live is to network _____________________________________________________________________

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Re: [Air-l] Re: ethnography
by Jonathan Marshall 17 Feb '04

17 Feb '04

Danny Butt <db(a)dannybutt.net> writes: > Paul > Willis' "Notes on Method" in Culture, Media, Language (1980) is a > goodsummary - it's a dangerous move to pretend the researchers' basic > assumptions can be overthrown by "experience". And the potential for > debilitating neo-colonial effects is (in my experience) much > greater in this > ethnographic mode than in sending out some surveys which > communities can more easily ignore if they obviously don't fit. Surely this depends on how the surveys are administered :) Even when only a few people particupate in a survey they can frequently be used by researchers to extrapolate about the rest of the 'community' - even to assume there is a community - without any check from closer ethnographic investigation. This is still a form of neo-colonialism. A way of simply imposing your categories on people with no means for them to tell you this is crap - or why it is crap. Its a research monologue. There is obviously a history of power in any kind of research - and i'm not so sure that ethnography is more prone to this than other forms of research. What research does operate outside a social field of some sort? Ethnography confronts you with this fact, as you try and negotiate within it or around it. If you have done ethnography you might know that people can make it fairly uncomfortable if they do not want you there, or they think you are imposing badly on them. > I also see many situations where well-intentioned > ethnographic work > causes grief for both the community of study and the researcher. And the same is true of non ethnographic work. > It's worth > holding in mind a) the inextricability of the ethnographic mode > with the > colonial missionary project and b) the likelihood of unintended > consequencesover intended ones, and the very different positions > of power which are held > in the ethnographic encounter. Linda Tuhiwai Smith's "Decolonizing > Methodologies" takes up the argument forcefully and should be required > reading for anyone considering this kind of work. Sure, but equally ethography is the only western social research (i say western to allow there may be other traditions i'm not familiar with) which has historically operated with much awareness of the problems of translation. The idea of incomensurabilty, unintended social consequences, misreading, the capturing of the researcher by social faction, positioned analysis, the failure of good intentions to be enough, and so on largely arises from ethnographic work, or its appropriation. Likewise fieldworkers actually have some hope of finding out some approximation of what the interests of the people they study actually are. They are also less likely to impose categories decided in some office somewhere else - because they don't work *here*. The whole history of disputes about social structure and kinship and so on in anthropology should be some kind of illustration of that. It also needs to be stated that in many cases early functionalist ethnography was phrased in the way it was to try and prevent colonial powers from simply imposing their own categories on people. The idea being that if socities meshed then it would be foolish to disrupt them. This is not simply neo-colonialist conservatism. The project may have been semi-futile and imperfect but it is doubtful any other proceedure would have been much better. I don't know of many ethnographic studies of how best to get people to work, for example, but there is plenty of that in sociology. > But the bottom line for me is > that if the > goal is to improve the world, and not just ourselves, we need to > find a way > of negotiating between the needs and desires of those under study > and our > own desires for knowledge - and the power imbalances between > these. Is there a way other than ethnography, which involves dialogue, and the alteration of research parameters in line with that dialogue which has any chance of succeeding here? It is difficult to get the strangeness of 'others' (*not* the monolithic post-modern 'other' which neglects difference in a big way), but living with people, being partially dependent on them, is one way of *starting*. > the bottom line is that Don > comes and > talks to us about Ghanaians without them necessarily being > present. Don't we all? nearly all the time? Most anthropology departments i'm aware of at least expect people to write ethnographies in consultation with the people. My stuff is always online, for the group i write about to read or to decry before its published, to use a trivial example. I don't say i get approval from everyone - that is not always possible, but at least there is some possibility of discussion, and i *will* rewrite. > The > effects of the circulation of this knowledge in western academia (and > related appendages e.g. into development policy), away from explicit > dialogue with the research subjects, can have a far greater impact > on the > subjects' community than their dialogue without us present can > have on us. This is why some of us have insisted that you cannot disregard the presence of corporate capitalism, imperialism, patriarchy etc, when doing your analysis. With ethnography you are more likely to see how such forces already impinge on things, rather than to pretend the internet is isolated from them. > No first world ethnographer ever lost their job for their > informants not > being happy with how they are represented, Not true - but for obvious reasons i'm not going to discuss these cases here. Sometimes ethnographer's have lost their lives, or their 'reason' as well. > but there are plenty of > examplesof such impacts (and worse) happening in researched > communities due to > research publications (e.g. in this part of the world, Cook's mapping > practices). Are mapping practices ethnography now? > My simple point is this: the "benefits" of research projects to > those under > study (or, in too many less-reflexive cases, to "the world") are > routinely treated as self-evident by researchers, yet the > experience of those being > researched is more often a betrayal of trust, loss of control, and > unintended consequences. This again has nothing to do with ethnography as such. All these things can happen without ethnography, and are probably more likely to do so. > Research is a powerful way of telling > stories, and > the key issue from my POV in methodological concerns is not "which > method"but "how are the power relationships here being circulated > through my methodological choices?". Fair enough :) but ethnography tends to bring you face to face with these issues in a way in which other techniques, to my knowledge do not. It is all very well to argue ethnography is not perfect, and i certainly agree, it can't be - this is what doing ethnography has 'taught' us - but perhaps you need to suggest an alternative research strategy which does not have these problems. jon UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER ======================================================================== This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. ========================================================================

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query re. f2f greetings
by Charles Ess 17 Feb '04

17 Feb '04

Dear AoIRists: On behalf of a colleague who is interested in important contrasts between online and offline experiences, a query: Is there literature, description, anecdotes, speculation about the following possibilities: Two people meet and talk f2f 1. The next time they meet - they remember one another and/or find other cues for recalling / establishing the identity of the Other. 2. The next time they meet - they do not seem to remember, but it's as if they are meeting for the first time. and: are there analogues for these possibilities online? That is - are there protocols (informal or otherwise) for how people greet newcomers, for example, in chatrooms (that might be analogous to meeting a newcomer f2f for the first time) vis-a-vis greeting protocols / rituals / conventions for subsequent meetings in which 3. the dialogical partners remember one another, and /or find other cues for recalling /establishing the identity of the Other. 4. the dialogical partners, in a subsequent encounter, fail to remember and must re-meet, as if for the first time? Part of the point of this query is to see if there cues we might draw from offline encounters and establishment of personal identity / trust in the Other that would apply / not apply to the online world - all with a view towards developing (a sense of) more secure networks and online communication. In particular: what do we do offline to establish a sense of the personal identity of a stranger - and how far can these procedures / protocols / rituals, etc. be replicated online? I hope you find the questions interesting, at least! Thanks in advance for any suggestions and comments you may be able to offer. Cheers, Charles Ess Distinguished Research Professor, Interdisciplinary Studies Drury University 900 N. Benton Ave. Voice: 417-873-7230 Springfield, MO 65802 USA FAX: 417-873-7435 Home page: http://www.drury.edu/ess/ess.html Co-chair, CATaC: http://www.it.murdoch.edu.au/catac/ Exemplary persons seek harmony, not sameness. -- Analects 13.23

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Re:Oops there goes the thread first post (An Internet Without Space)
by Eero Tarik 17 Feb '04

17 Feb '04

Stephanie wrote, in reply to Frank... "You wonder how your students have become so much younger than you all of a sudden? :-)My students are about TWO decades younger than me and I am finding the same thing that you are finding. This semester I have five sections of students- about 125 students. In an informal poll last month I discovered that only about 1% know anything about usenets, discussion lists, etc. As you can see from the sig file, I am from the States. Most of my students are not internationals. What do you think is the reason for their lack of Internet savvy? I am perplexed." Frank, Stephanie, I have two teenage children, neither is allowed to use the internet at home although each has their own computer. There are numerous reasons why I wont and cant let them go for their lives online from home. At school they are allowed to use the internet, however there is a download limit for the year of something like 2MB, after which you pay, and its expensive so they ignore the school option. Recently I encouraged them to go to the library where they can get a free hour of internet access if they book in advance and they have started to do this about once a fortnight. My eldest son is in his last year of school. If he goes to uni next year he will have had no experience in the areas you mention - because it hasnt been easily available to him and many of his friends are in a similar situation. Should we, therefore, be surprised that those entering universities striaght from school have little or no experience online. It may not be out of lack of interest, but rather a lack of opportunity. Its also worth noting that nearly all of us didnt know anything about the internet at 18 years of age because it didnt exist, yet have had no trouble acquiring the skills and knowledge needed over the years. see ya Eero Tarik Adelaide

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Summer Fellowships: Culture and Technology
by Ulla Bunz 17 Feb '04

17 Feb '04

I'm forwarding a forward as I think this might appeal to some of you. Ulla Bunz > >Summer Fellowship Call for Projects > >Vectors: Journal of Culture and Technology in a Dynamic Vernacular > > > >The Institute for Multimedia Literacy (IML) at the University of Southern California'Äôs Annenberg Center for Communication is pleased to announce a Fellowship program for summer 2004 to foster innovative research for its new electronic publishing venture, Vectors: Journal of Culture and Technology in a Dynamic Vernacular. > > > >Vectors is a new, international electronic journal dedicated to expanding the potentials of academic publication via emergent and transitional media. Vectors brings together visionary scholars with cutting-edge designers and technologists to propose a thorough > >rethinking of the dynamic relationship of form to content in academic research, focusing on the ways technology shapes, transforms and reconfigures social and cultural relations. > > > >Vectors will adhere to the highest standards of quality in a strenuously reviewed format. The journal is edited by Tara McPherson and Steve Anderson and guided by the collective knowledge of a prestigious international board. > > > >About the Fellowships > >¬... Vectors Fellowships will be awarded to up to six individuals or teams of collaborators in the early to mid- stages of development of a scholarly multimedia project related to the themes of Evidence or Mobility. Completed projects will be included in the first two issues of the journal beginning in fall 2004. Vectors will feature next-generation multimedia work, moving far beyond the 'Äòtext with image'Äô format of most online scholarly publications. > > > >Fall 2004: Evidence > >¬... The first issue of the journal will be devoted to a broad > >reconsideration of the notion of Evidence and its multiple > >transformations in contemporary scholarship and digital culture. > > > >Spring 2005: Mobility > >¬... The second issue will be devoted to exploring the shifting concepts and practices of Mobility in contemporary culture, creatively limning the possibilities and limits of such a concept for understanding 21st century life. > > > >About the Awards > >All fellowship recipients will participate in a one-week residency June 21-25, 2004 at the Institute for Multimedia Literacy in Los Angeles, where they will have access to the IML'Äôs state of the art, Mac-based production facilities. Fellows will have continuing access to work in collaboration with world-class designers and the IML'Äôs technical support and programming team throughout the project'Äôs development. > > > >The residency will include colloquia and working sessions where participants will have the chance to develop project foundations and collectively engage relevant issues in scholarly multimedia. Applicants need not be proficient with new media authoring; however, evidence of successful collaboration and scholarly innovation is desirable. Fellowship awards will include an honorarium of $2000 for each > >participant or team of collaborators, in addition to travel and accommodation expenses. > > > >About the Proposals > >We are seeking project proposals that creatively address issues related to the first two themes of Evidence and Mobility. While the format of the journal is meant to explore innovative forms of multimedia > >scholarship, we are not necessarily looking for projects that are about new media. Rather, we are interested in the various ways that new media suggest a transformation of scholarship, art and communication practices and their relevance to everyday life in an unevenly mediated world. > > > >Applicants are encouraged to think beyond the computer screen to consider possibilities created by the proliferation of wireless technology, handheld devices, alternative exhibition venues, etc. Fellows will also have the possibility to imagine scholarly applications for newly developing technologies through productive collaborations with scientists and engineers. Projects may translate existing scholarly work or be entirely conceived for new media. We are particularly interested in work that re-imagines the role of the user and seeks to reach broader publics while creatively exploring the value of collaboration and interactivity. > > > >Proposals should include the following: > >¬... Title of project and a one-sentence description > >¬... A 3-5 page description of the project concept, goals and outcome (this description should address questions of audience, innovative uses of interactivity, address and form, as well the project'Äôs contribution to the field of multimedia scholarship and to contemporary scholarship more generally) > >¬... Brief biography of each applicant, including relevant qualifications and experience for this fellowship > >¬... Full CV for each applicant > >¬... Anticipated required resources (design, technical, hardware, software, exhibition, etc.) > >¬... Projected timeline > >¬... Sample media if available (CD, DVD, VHS (any standard), or NTSC Mini-DV); for electronic submissions, URLs are preferred but still images may be sent as e-mail attachments if necessary) > > > >Please submit to: > > > >Vectors Summer Fellowships > >Institute for Multimedia Literacy > >746 W. Adams Blvd. > >Los Angeles, CA 90089 > >e-mail: vectors(a)annenberg.edu > > > >Priority will be given to applications received by March 12, 2004. Fellowship recipients will be notified in mid-April. > > > >Additional Information > > > >For additional information about the Vectors Summer Fellowship Program, please consult our informational website at > >http://www.iml.annenberg.edu/vectors . Questions may be > directed to > >Associate Editor Steve Anderson, sanderson(a)annenberg.edu . -- Ulla Bunz Assistant Professor Department of Communication Rutgers University 4 Huntington Street New Brunswick, NJ 08901

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origin of gibson quote
by Barry Wellman 17 Feb '04

17 Feb '04

Folks, I can use a little bibliographic help. Wenhong Chen and I are at the end of writing a Digital Divide paper for the Blackwell Companion on Social Stratification. We want to use a quote attributed to William Gibson, "The future is already here; it's just unevenly distributed." Now the quote itself is widely posted on the web. But never with a specific reference to a page number. Sometimes, a web poster will say "As William Gibson said in _Neuroromancer_, `The future is ...' But I went thru Neuroromancer yesterday and couldn't find it (Ace original edition, 1984). Can anyone pin down the exact reference for this quote. Or is this an urban legend, oft repeated but never sourced? In which case we shall say "(attributed to William Gibson)" Barry _____________________________________________________________________ Barry Wellman Professor of Sociology NetLab Director wellman at chass.utoronto.ca http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~wellman Centre for Urban & Community Studies University of Toronto 455 Spadina Avenue Toronto Canada M5S 2G8 fax:+1-416-978-7162 To network is to live; to live is to network _____________________________________________________________________

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Re: [Air-l] cms recommendations
by Art McGee 17 Feb '04

17 Feb '04

Do some additional investigating here: http://www.opensourcecms.com http://www.la-grange.net/cms Art

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CFP- AfroGEEKS Conference Deadline
by Jillana Enteen 16 Feb '04

16 Feb '04

Hello all, I believe Art sent around this CFP already, but I was asked to circulate once more before deadline. Best, jillana Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> >>> ------------- conference call-------------- >>> >>> AfroGEEKS: FROM TECHNOPHOBIA TO TECHNOPHILIA >>> >>> MAY 7-8, 2004 @ THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SANTA BARBARA >>> >>> CALL FOR CONFERENCE PAPERS: DEADLINE MARCH 1, 2004 >>> >>> The Center for Black Studies at the University of California, Santa >>> Barbara, invites submissions of papers for an upcoming conference, >>> entitled “AfroGEEKS: From Technophobia to Technophilia.” This >>> conference >>> examines the rapidly-shifting relationship between issues of >>> Blackness >>> and technology. In recent years, African Americans, especially, have >>> been portrayed as poster children for the digital divide discourse. >>> Though rarely represented as full participants in the information >>> technology revolution, Black people are among the earliest adopters >>> and >>> comprise some of the most ardent and innovative users of IT >>> (information >>> technology). African diasporic people’s many successes within new >>> media >>> and information technologies are too often overshadowed by the >>> significant inequalities in technology access which ultimately >>> produces >>> the racial digital divide. >>> >>> But there is more to this important and timely topic. We are >>> interested >>> in proposals that consider the following topics: >>> >>> 1. Structural barriers to IT access that specifically impact Black >>> communities >>> 2. Effective models of innovative IT use and adoption in Black >>> communities >>> 3. The influence of traditional science education on Black youths >>> 4. Technophobes and Luddites in the Black community >>> 5. Computer gaming in the Black community >>> 6. Black popular music culture, such as sampling and turntablism, >>> within >>> the IT economy >>> 7. The place of Blacks in the IT industry >>> 8. How categories of hi-tech and low-tech mastery get determined and >>> circulated >>> 9. Black IT leaders >>> 10. Recent legislation regarding the telecommunications industry and >>> universal access to IT >>> 11. The responsibility of the government and IT businesses to >>> minority >>> communities >>> 12. IT issues on the African continent and for African diasporas >>> outside >>> of the U.S. >>> 13. Events of September 11 relative to Blacks’ position in the IT >>> economy >>> 14. The Geek identity problematic >>> 15. From IT Consumers to IT Producers >>> 16. Black virtual communities >>> 17. Black blogs >>> 18. Blacks and military-based IT training >>> 19. Becoming AfroGeeks >>> 20. Proposals addressing related topics welcome >>> >>> The conference will be held May 7-8, 2004, at the University of >>> California, Santa Barbara. >>> Proposals should be limited to two pages and should include an >>> abstract >>> of not more than 350 words, an abbreviated c.v. or resume, and >>> audio/visual equipment needs. >>> Proposals should be submitted to: >>> >>> Dr. Anna Everett, Director >>> Center for Black Studies >>> University of California >>> Santa Barbara, CA 93106 >>> >>> For more information, e-mail: ctr4blst(a)omni.ucsb.edu >>> http://www.research.ucsb.edu/cbs >>> >>> >>> >>> <everett.vcf> >> Jillana Enteen >> jillana(a)jillana.net >> http://jillana.net > Jillana Enteen jillana(a)jillana.net http://jillana.net

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